Heather grew up assuming she would marry a man and have children.  So she did.  But sex was never a good experience. Then she had sex with a woman for the first time, and her life was changed forever.

Today she lives with her female partner and co-parents her four daughters with her former husband.

She opens up about her early sexual journey through the lens of parenthood, and what she wants for her daughters compared to what she experienced.

Heather is a 45-year-old, cisgender female who describes herself as lesbian, monogamous, peri-menopausal, and in a long-term domestic partnership.  She has four daughters, ages 6 to 15, and describes her body as “a little pudgy”.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT (CLICK TO OPEN)

LEAH: Welcome to Good Girls Talk About Sex. I’m sex educator and sexual communication coach Leah Carey and this is a place to share conversations with all sorts of women about their experience of sexuality. These are unfiltered conversations between adult women talking about sex. If anything about the previous sentence offends you, turn back now! And if you’re looking for a trigger warning, you’re not going to get it from me. I believe that you are stronger than the trauma you have experienced. I have faith in your ability to deal with things that upset you. Sound good? Let’s start the show!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Today, we’ll meet Heather, a 45 year old cisgender female who describes herself as lesbian, monogamous, perimenopausal and in a long term domestic partnership. She has 4 daughters, ages 6-15, and describes her body as a little pudgy. Like many of us, Heather grew up assuming she would marry a man and have children, so she did.

But sex was never a particularly good experience. In fact, she says during this conversation that she could tell you the date and time each of her four daughters were conceived. Then, she had sex with a woman for the first time and her life changed forever. Today, she lives with her female partner and co- parents with her former husband. I’m so pleased to introduce Heather!

I’m so excited to talk with you. Thank you for being with me today.

HEATHER: Thanks for having me, Leah. This feels like such a risky thing to do.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Which is why I believe you’re having an alcoholic beverage while you’re speaking.

HEATHER: No, I mean maybe.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So I start every conversation in the same place. What is your first memory of sexual pleasure?

HEATHER: First of all, I love everything that you do and no one’s ever asked me that question, so I’ve never had to answer it. But I did recently have a conversation that revolved around this. I remember being 5 and discovering that when the bath water was running out, that felt good down there.

LEAH: Yes! Oh my God, yes!

HEATHER: Yeah, I was like if the bath water feels good down there, then what happens if I touch myself down there? Which worked also and then I remember doing that on the couch in the living room and my mother going “Heather! We don’t do that.” I was like, “Why not?” But I was stopped then. I didn’t stop in general, but I stopped doing it on the couch.

And it’s funny enough I shouldn’t tell their stories on here, but many of my daughters have also discovered that at an early age and we have conversations where I say, because I don’t want to say “We don’t do that” but I say, “We do that in private in the bathroom or in our bedrooms and if you share a room with your sisters, alone in the bedroom.”

LEAH: Yeah. Because this is a question I get from a lot of moms, how do I raise a sex positive child or a child who has a positive relationship with sex? And one of the things that I talk about is this is a way where we can start instilling the idea of boundaries and consent in children and say, “Other people who are in the room have not consented to see this and we want to respect their boundaries, so this is something that you do in your bedroom.” And this is a really non-shameful way to start introducing that conversation.

HEATHER: I like that. I’ve never used the term consent with it but I do often go, “That feels really good right?” They’re like, “Yeah.” I’m like, “I totally get it. It does. But it’s personal. It’s private. It’s for you to do.”

LEAH: I love that.

HEATHER: When they get older, they might want to share it with someone else and that’s fine so I don’t want them to think that they can’t do it then if they want to. It’s more like the idea of sharing the word consent.

LEAH: So you started masturbating when you were around 5-ish, were you coming to something that you would now recognize as an orgasm?

HEATHER: I don’t recall, maybe, I don’t know. I have very limited childhood memories, which people would love to tell me that I was somehow abused. And maybe I was, but I really don’t think so. I don’t have a great memory as it is from day to day so I don’t know.

[LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: But I do remember, I could be skipping ahead here sorry. LEAH: That’s fine.

HEATHER: So we’ve told everybody that I identify as a lesbian but I didn’t for a really long time and I didn’t come out until I was much older, I already had kids, all of that.

As I was coming out though and people were like, “Did you know? You must have always known.” And I didn’t always know. I’ve started to remember moments in my life where maybe I should have figured it out like the teenage or maybe pre-teen neighbor, we were playing doctor.

She was the doctor and I was the patient and I’m pretty sure we had what I would now consider as lesbian sex, which is actually just sex. But I didn’t know and I absolutely had an orgasm and I remember doing that and then going, “I think you should do that again.” I was at the age somewhere between 10 and 12 maybe, the age is a little fuzzy and I think she was a couple years older.

LEAH: And so did you continue doing that with her?

HEATHER: No. I only remember one time and I don’t really remember seeing her again.

LEAH: And was that something like, “I have to find somebody else to do this with” or it’s just “We’re done” thing?

HEATHER: Yeah and I literally didn’t remember it until 5, 6 years ago. Yeah, as I say, I never knew any lesbians and I didn’t find them in college and maybe it would have been different.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: But then you wouldn’t have your kids.

HEATHER: Exactly, I wouldn’t change a thing. Not one moment in my life would I change.

LEAH: So after that first entry into experience with another person, when did that happen again? When did you engage with another person sexually again?

HEATHER: Wow. My memory is so crappy. That I can easily identify would probably have been in middle school. The guy I think is Mike, is that bad I don’t remember? I remember we were in a van with friends and somebody’s parents. The kind of old school van where the back was a bed. You could pull a curtain and there were seats in the front and he fingered me.

LEAH: With other people in the van?

HEATHER: Yeah.

LEAH: Wow, that’s ballsy.

HEATHER: I’m a ballsy girl. I don’t know. [LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: Or a stupid one, I don’t know. [LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: I would not want my daughters to do that because there were other people in the van and also I was very young. I wouldn’t want that either. And then I remember, it was gross, it’s not gross now, but it’s gross to think of him doing this when we were that age. Because the curtain was pulled and when we got up, he looked at his friend and he smelled his finger.

[LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: And now I go perhaps that’s assault like. I don’t know.

LEAH: Yeah, that’s very performative.

[LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: Right. I was like, “Oh, it’s gross” like I don’t find the smell or any of that gross but I think as children, which we were, he was trying to brag, I don’t know. It felt gross.

LEAH: Did you feel gross in the moment that it happened or is that just looking back at it?

HEATHER: Yeah, I think I did.

LEAH: Yeah, did you do anything with him again?

HEATHER: I do not recall doing anything with him again. There were so many boys on my way to find out I liked girls.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So tell me the stories.

HEATHER: There were so many. I had sex with so many different people because I kept thinking they make movies about this. They write whole books about this. It’s supposed to be amazing and it’s not. It’s just the wrong person. I need to keep trying new people and it wasn’t ever. And I had some relatively good sex with men when I got older, but it was nothing like having sex with a woman. The first time I had sex with a woman I was like “Oh, now I get it” instantly.

LEAH: Interesting. I was actually afraid to have sex with a woman because sex with men had been so difficult and I had been fantasizing about sex with women for so long that I was like “If this is bad too, then the problem is actually me.”

HEATHER: Oh, that’s tough. [LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: Yeah, I feel that.

LEAH: I did eventually get over that. HEATHER: That’s good. Good for you. [LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So when you say you were having sex with lots of people, was this happening through high school and college?

HEATHER: College for sure. High school, there was sexual relations, I like to pull out a Clinton term there. I did not have sexual relations but I was like, “That’s straight up sexual relations”, just going to say.

[LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: With a couple of different boys in high school. I was 16 when I lost my virginity.

LEAH: And so you had already been fingered at that point, so we’re talking about active penetration.

HEATHER: Correct. He and I probably did it. I don’t remember at all but it’s not like I had a lot of people do that.

But I’m sure the way that I lost my virginity, that we did that before penile insertion. But that I knew right away was not an okay situation. We’ve been dating for a long time. I liked him. We were at his home and his mother went out to get fast food for dinner and she was literally going to be gone 15-20 minutes and he said, “Come on, come on, come on. Let’s do it.” And I said, “We don’t have time.” He was like, “Yeah, we do. First of all, here’s your sign. Choose it.”

I would have been a master there if I could have sex in fifteen minutes but now, I’m almost 45 and I know what I’m doing. I didn’t know what I was doing then and I didn’t do anything. I said, “Okay” and he did and then it was all done and I couldn’t do anything about it and I went home and cried.

LEAH: Did it hurt or was it just unpleasant?

HEATHER: It didn’t hurt, but I knew I let him talk me into something that I didn’t want to be doing. And so now that we talk about these kinds of things, I’ve had the opportunity to talk with my kids and say, “That’s assault. If you pressure somebody into saying yes, that’s assault. They don’t have the right to do that. Yes, you can say no but it is hard to say no when you want to a boy to like you and you’re 16 and you feel like he might not like you anymore afterwards. It’s scary to say.”

You have to have a lot of confidence unless you’ve been told over and over again that you have the right to say no, which I never had any kinds of conversations like that with anybody. “So that’s assault. If somebody pressures you and you don’t feel like you really have a choice, that’s not okay.”

LEAH: Yeah, absolutely. So what kinds of conversations were you having in your home or were you getting Sex Ed at school?

HEATHER: My mom told me you had to be married to get pregnant.

LEAH: Oh, wow. Wow.

[LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: I mean it didn’t take me long to figure out that wasn’t true but that was her line. Now, she’s like, “I don’t know why I did that. It’s so dumb.”

[LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: My parents divorced when I was 9 weeks old so I think my response was, “But you and daddy weren’t married.” She’s like, “Yes we were.” No conversations. My mom’s version of the talk was putting on a really good opera show about teenage pregnancy.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: They were teenagers so presumably they weren’t married. [LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: They weren’t married. By then, I knew better. I’m just saying we didn’t have any conversations about it. No, she told me that when I was little and it didn’t take me very long to figure out that that had not been the truth and we just never actually had a real talk.

LEAH: Was there an idea that you didn’t have sex until you were married?

HEATHER: We never talked about my sex life. We never talked about me having sex or not having sex. When she started to figure out that I was having sex, she took me to the doctor and got me on the pill but we still didn’t talk about it.

LEAH: Did you want to?

HEATHER: Probably not. I mean I love my mom but it wasn’t this big warm conversation. Whereas I do think at least my oldest, I believe that she would want to talk to me about it whether she’ll feel comfortable or not, she’ll feel safe, because she’s shared with me the other choices she’s made and some of them she’s regretted and how she handled it and what she would do moving forward, so I feel very lucky that I’ve been able to forge my relationship.

LEAH: Good. What about Sex Ed were you getting that at school? HEATHER: Yeah, in high school.

LEAH: What was it like? Was it useful?

HEATHER: I mean it was biology. It was basics. I don’t remember much about it except that I remember one high school assembly where the principal told all the girls that no farmer is going to get the cow if he’s getting the milk for free.

LEAH: The principal said that? HEATHER: Yes.

LEAH: Oh my God.

HEATHER: So it was 100% our responsibility, all of it. And also lots of people buy the cow and they get the milk for free which was gross because he called us all cows, whatever. I actually told my kids, “You need to test this shit out. Don’t marry somebody you haven’t had sex with. That’s a terrible idea because if the sex sucks, you’re screwed. You’re stuck or divorced because that shit won’t last long.”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Right. So as you’ve alluded to, you know identify as a lesbian. Were there people in your orbit who were lesbians? Did you even know that that was a possibility?

HEATHER: Yes. I did know it was a possibility. I knew gay men. I didn’t know gay women. There was one woman that I briefly met at a party in college. I do remember there was a thing. I felt a thing but I didn’t ever see her again so I didn’t do anything with the thing and I didn’t pursue the thing and I always knew that I found women attractive.

What I didn’t know because the way women talk to and about each other is so, “Oh my Gosh, she’s so hot, blah blah blah.” I didn’t know that the way that felt to me was different than the way that felt to a straight girl. That was where my disconnect was. I was like, “We’re all saying the same thing” except I would actually like to go down on her and they wouldn’t. That was really the difference.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: I think I’ve actually heard some version of that statement from every gay or bisexual I’ve interviewed.

HEATHER: Really? Because I’ve never heard anybody else say that back to me.

LEAH: Oh, I felt that same way. I thought that we all thought women were beautiful that that was just a thing. And because we are all sexualized to see women as beautiful and to see them as sexy, that’s how they’re marketed to us. So the idea that not everybody wanted to spend their time looking at them the way I wanted to look at them, yeah, I had no idea.

HEATHER: Yup.

LEAH: So we’ve talked about high school and it doesn’t sound like you were having relationships. It

sounds like you were having short engagements.

HEATHER: I dated a couple of guys in high school at length. There’s one in particular and I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately and I don’t know why it’s on my mind. I really don’t. So there was the guy I lost my virginity to and then there were two other sort of serious boyfriends. There’s an awful lot of sex in places where there were other people now that I think about it.

[LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: But at one point, I had a group of friends that were crappy friends quite frankly. They just were not the cream of the crop. They were rich kids. I wasn’t. And they were spoiled little brats and they were just dying to go out and cause trouble because their lives have been so oppressed and ugh.

[LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: And so we started hanging out at Hooters and they started budding up to people, some of the young men who were working in the kitchen and I met a boy, a young man, I was in high school. He was older than me. And we would all three girls, three guys, those of us who were in high school, sneak out of our house at night, and then the boys would get a cheap motel room and everybody would have sex.

And I distinctly remember it hurting so badly being bloody and swollen every time which interestingly enough I never stopped him and I’m trying to think, doesn’t that hurt? If it’s doing that to me, how can that feel good on your penis? I let him. He was not assaulting me but I was not self aware enough to know that if I wasn’t wet, I did not want this. I had no idea. And I haven’t thought about that in years and I’m not mad at that young man. I’m not. I mean he should have known, maybe he should have been more self aware but he did not force himself on me.

But lately, I think of that all the time and maybe it’s because I have kids all around at that same age now or maybe because I’m learning more about myself and it’s hard to think why did I let that thing happen? Why did I do that to myself? What did I want? How was I that desperate for attention? I felt like I must have needed that attention so badly.

Anyway, totally aside, so there were relationships in high school. But they passed like all the others. Both of them lasted. Both of the long term ones lasted over a year so they were decent. And then in college, I had two very serious boyfriends and then before and in between them, there were casual relationships but nothing floated my boat.

I mean I tried. The first guy was an asshole. He was super emotionally abusive and I’m working on a memoir right now and I actually changed name [super not so innocent -20:49] but interestingly enough, my college roommate who I only talked very occasionally reached out to me a few months ago and said, “Do you even think about so and so?” And I said, “I do not.” And she said, “I work with him. I see him in my industry regularly and I want you to know that he knows that we did to you was wrong. He’s got daughters now and he’s sorry.” And I said, “I don’t spend any time thinking about him but I’m glad to know that he has recognized and that he wants better for his own children.” Very emotionally abusive and some of that I’ll take responsibility for and some of that I won’t. It’s a tough situation. So the sex was with him was fine like child sex, it was not grown up sex.

[LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: It wasn’t anything that’s going to make you scream in a good way that’s for sure. [LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: And it’s funny because I really did love my long term 3 year boyfriend in college. I really did love him intensely and when we broke up it was heartbreaking and devastating but prior to that we didn’t have mind-blowing sex. But we got back together.

I had this sort of existential experience after we broke up where I went out and got really comfortable with myself and tried other things and became more sexually adventurous. And we got back together for 6 months. And I remember the very first time we were having sex, I asked him to bite my nipples. And he goes “What? Are you serious?” And I said, “Yeah, do it harder.” And he was like, “What is happening right now?”

[LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: And it was probably the first time in my whole life that I’ve ever gone, “No, I think I want this thing and I want you to do this thing to me” and felt comfortable enough to ask for it, and I’ll give him credit for being someone I was comfortable enough to ask. Obviously the relationship ended and he was a nice enough guy.

LEAH: And when you say you got out and had some experiences and got a little more adventurous, what does that mean? What does adventurous mean to you?

HEATHER: Well, nothing to how it seems for some people.

[LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: But just where I would let somebody try to bite my nipples. I was willing to try new things and be more expressive and learn what actually felt good and start to pay attention to it really. I don’t know. My sex life has been very boring. I’m not a great candidate for your show.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: You’re doing awesome.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: The issue is not the most extreme story. The issue is real stories and these are real stories. [MUSIC]

LEAH: As a mother of 4 daughters who has been through her own growing and learning sexuality, I assumed Heather has thought a lot about how to talk with them about sex. At this point in the conversation, we dove into that topic. And if you’re a fan of the Gilmore Girls like I am, you’ll love The way that she’s using that show with her kids as a teaching tool. You’ll find that plus the extended Lowdown Q and A at patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex.

Audio extras are free for everyone at Patreon regardless of whether you’re a patron. If you have a few dollars to pledge to support for my work each month, I will gratefully accept. But if you don’t, I completely understand. The world is on fire right now and I honor you for taking care of yourself. Remember you can access the audio extras at patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex.

To get them for free, click the link on the app you’re listening on now and you have to do it that way because you can’t search on Patreon because my material is age 18+. Create a Patreon login and follow my account to get updates when I post new audio extras. If you’re a financial contributor, you’ve got a special RSS feed on your account so the audio extras will show up automatically in your Podcast app. You can find more, become a community member, and get the audio at patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex.

And remember, if your finances are tight and you still want to support the show, please share it with your friends! You can even host a listening party. It’s a great way to deepen your own conversations around intimacy and sex. Now, let’s get back to the conversation with Heather.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: What was your relationship with your body during these early years, high school and college?

HEATHER: That’s a really great question. I sure wish it had been as awesome as it should have been given the way that my body looked.

LEAH: Right.

[LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: Holy shit. Now that I’m almost 45 and a little pudgy, I’m like, “I fucking looked so good. Why did I not love every bit of myself?” And now I will say, I had a breast reduction when I was 15 and prior that, it was a game changer for me. Prior to that, I was a little shy and quiet, which I’m not.

[LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: And I wore big, baggy clothing because I didn’t want anybody. I mean I weighed 114 pounds and they took 5 pounds of breast tissue out.

LEAH: Whoa.

HEATHER: So I didn’t want anybody to see the figure. And I can remember, I was 15 when I had the breast reduction so I was a sophomore in high school. And then after the surgery, I was like, “Well, let me get in a bikini. Let’s show you what I got. I look good.” So it was not bad. I didn’t hate my body. I didn’t think I was ugly or gross or fat, I wasn’t. But I didn’t love my body.

LEAH: Let’s just pause at the breast reduction for another minute because frankly I’ve never talked to anyone who has had one before. How did it affect your breast sensation going forward?

HEATHER: Thankfully, it didn’t. They warned me that there was a really strong possibility that I would have little to no sensation and I think up until that point, again I was 15, I hadn’t really anyway.

[LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: Even though I have done some things. I didn’t have anything to compare it to. But they’re very sensitive and I have scars underneath and up and around. And I had these in my breasts that were enormous and I had these nipples that were the size of silver dollars and so you can’t keep that because that would be the size of the entire new breast.

[LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: And you guys can’t see us. We can see a circle painted on my breast. [LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: So they are asymmetrical because they had to cut them down and they’re not the same shape and they have these scars which I don’t notice anymore. But my first boyfriend in college, the emotionally abusive one, used to tell me and his friends how gross my scars were.

LEAH: Oh no.

HEATHER: But nobody since then, it’s not noticeable, it’s not a problem. I mean it’s been 30 years so the

scars are still there but they’re not aggressive. Yeah, that was humiliating. He was not a nice person.

LEAH: It doesn’t sound like it. How does a 15 year old end up getting breast reduction surgery because it seems quite young so was it that something that you were going for? Was it something that a doctor recommended to you? How did that happen?

HEATHER: It was absolutely something that I wanted. I had terrible back pain, creases on my shoulders from my bra straps, and the doctor recommended it, I wanted it. And it’s funny my stepdad at the time was like, “This is a terrible idea. I would not make my penis smaller if it were too big. Why would a girl do this?”

LEAH: Oh my God! [LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: He literally said that. But he’s like, “Whatever” and he paid 100% for it. My parents never paid a dime out of pocket for it because it showed medical need and it literally really changed my life which absolutely gave me courage and comfort with myself in ways that I could never have imagined.

LEAH: Yeah, I’m glad that you got to have that. And even thought 15 sounds really young, I’m really glad that you had that in that point in your life so you didn’t have to go through another bunch of years suffering.

HEATHER: Yeah, me too. And I don’t know that I don’t think you have children. LEAH: I don’t.

HEATHER: Girls stop growing about a year after they start their period. And so, I started my period at 12. I stopped growing at 13. They make you wait a couple of years as grown as you’re going to get. At that point, you’re just going to get wide. You’re not going to get taller or any of that stuff. So from a growth standpoint, it was a completely appropriate time. Maybe emotionally, mentally, not so much but it was great for me.

LEAH: Well, thank you for sharing that. It’s fascinating. So okay, we’ve talked about college. [LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Now moving forward, what happened next?

HEATHER: Again, I dated and slept with people and then I met my ex-husband and we had super vanilla sex and then I came out. I could tell you the date and time all four of my kids were conceived. That’s not a joke if that tells you anything. And I can’t remember anything, remember.

[LAUGHTER]

HEATHER: Yeah, my memory sucks but I remember that.

LEAH: So how old were you when the two of you got together? HEATHER: When we first got together, 26.

LEAH: And how long did the two of you last?

HEATHER: By the time we were officially divorced, it was 15 years. LEAH: Wow. And so was he happy with your sex life?

HEATHER: No.

LEAH: Does he want more?

HEATHER: Yes. But he didn’t ask for more. I didn’t ask for more. We just didn’t know each other. It was just not a healthy comfortable relationship. We tried. Once I came out to him and we started going to therapy, we tried being more communicative and feeling each other’s needs. It just didn’t work. We just didn’t fit well together.

LEAH: What was sex like when you did have it?

HEATHER: It felt really quick. That was really my goal. Can it just be quick? To his credit, it always started with him going down on me and I would have an orgasm and then he would insert his penis and then we would be done. I did always get off so there was always that. He wasn’t selfish in that way.

LEAH: So at what point and under what circumstances did you recognize that there was maybe something else going on?

HEATHER: So this is where I’m going to keep this episode anonymous. I was at a routine medical appointment and one of the women working there walked in the room. I looked at her and I was like, “Oh my God, I’m going to have sex with this woman.” And I just hardcore pursued her. I was married. I hardcore pursued her. We had a very hot two week relationship and then we sort of stayed friends. It was hot. Holy shit.

LEAH: And was that the first time that you ever did anything with a woman? HEATHER: Other than the girl that I did remember from when I was a kid. Yeah. LEAH: And what was that first time like?

HEATHER: Absolutely incredible. It was hours and hours long of exploration and it was the first time that anyone had checked in with me about what I liked and what I didn’t like and I was aware enough of what I liked and what I didn’t like. All the things worked. It was incredible.

LEAH: And so that lasted for a couple of weeks.

HEATHER: Yeah, a couple of weeks. And I thought I was regulated to a life of wanting what I knew was awesome and couldn’t have after that. A year before my husband found out and then a couple of years after we decided to get divorced.

LEAH: how did he respond when he found out? Was he like, “Oh, so that’s what was going on”?

HEATHER: He was pretty pissed. He was pretty violently angry. His wife cheated. I can’t be mad at him for that. I understand. But then he was okay and of course, not everybody but a lot of people, I hear this story a lot, it’s easier to start by, “Oh, it’s okay. I want you both. It’s fine.” He’s like, “It’s okay, you can still be wanted.” We tried really hard to work it out. That was when we tried.

LEAH: So you first came out to him as bi?

HEATHER: He found out. He turned on my phone that was turned off and saw old text messages and

found out. Yeah and then lost his fucking mind.

LEAH: So when you told him you were bi, was that with the anticipation that maybe you would be able to continue a relationship with him and have something with a woman?

HEATHER: Not at that time. After several months, a year, he started to say, “Well, it’s not so much about the sexuality. You can do this if I know or if I’m included or things like that. You can do that.” But it just wasn’t enough because it’s not about sex. Your sexual orientation isn’t about physical act of sex.

LEAH: Yeah. So at what point did you decide you couldn’t do it anymore?

HEATHER: So we got involved with a couple, a lesbian couple, so it was the four of us. LEAH: And they were open to him being in the room?

HEATHER: They were, which he did for a while, and then he didn’t. He realized that it wasn’t going to work for him. There were a lot of things again that I wouldn’t’ change or trade any of my life experiences, but it was a very stressful time of my life and while there was a lot of great sex, there was an awful lot of great sex going on. Pleasing three partners is just too fucking much. And I was the epicenter. I was the one that everybody wanted. It was a lot of pressure. So when I decide to go through with the divorce, I ended that relationship as well. We got to be all done with everything.

LEAH: So when the four of you were together, was it a foursome? Was it couple swapping? How did that work?

HEATHER: Sometimes it was all four engaged in one sort of cohesive activity and sometimes it would be two congruent people and then swapping.

LEAH: Were the lesbians open to swapping to be with your husband? HEATHER: Yeah. They did.

LEAH: Interesting.

HEATHER: I was about the only one who didn’t want to. [LAUGHTER]

LEAH: We had been on that ride a bunch of times already. HEATHER: Ugh. I really don’t like penises.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So once you came out and you were like actually out and out of the marriage, how did you move forward? Because you have kids, you’re not just a single floating person out there in the world. You have presumably a life and a community and all of that. How did that work for you to transition your identity?

HEATHER: It worked fine. I accidentally outed myself on Facebook. And everyone knew and when that happened, my partner who I’d been sort of friends with from a work standpoint, reached out and said, “Hey, did I see this thing? Did you just come out on Facebook? And if you need a friend or whatever.” We started to talk and she was going through some of her own things and that relationship just sort of blossomed and then that’s years and years ago and she’s amazing.

LEAH: So what’s sex like with your current partner?

HEATHER: It’s really great. It’s really intuitive. Sometimes it’s really soft and tender. Sometimes it’s really aggressive and borderline painful but in the right ways. We do a really nice job of communicating our needs well with one another and it’s never, ever mediocre, ever.

LEAH: I take it it’s a lot more frequent than it was with your husband.

HEATHER: It is. It’s a lot more frequent than that. It maybe not as frequent as she might want it to be because life is busy and when my brain is full, I have a really hard time closing that down to open it up but I mean it’s still pretty regular. It’s not like once a quarter or anything.

[LAUGHTER] [MUSIC]

LEAH: Remember how fun it was to have teenage sleepovers where we’d do each other’s nails and braid each other’s hair and gossip about kissing and relationships? I’m lucky because I still get to have those fun juicy conversations on a regular basis.

But I know that a lot of you may find it hard to make the time and space to have these intimate connecting conversations with your girlfriends. So, I’ve created a space where you get to have that same fun again. It’s an adult PJ party!

It’s a whole luxurious evening of girl talk. I’ll lead you to a no holds barred conversation with your girlfriends talking about sex, relationships, toys, kink, orgasms, anything you can think, we can talk about it! Even better, we’ll do it in a way that preserves social distancing and gives you a night of connection and intimacy with your favorite people.

Or if you prefer, join a group where nobody knows each other in advance so you can be completely open and honest without worrying about revealing about too much to people you see every day. So let me help you create a space where the conversation can be easy, sexy, and fun. Visit leahcarey.com/pjparty for all the information and to book a party for you and your friends. Again, that link is leahcarey.com/pjparty and it’s in the app you’re listening on right now.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: And now it’s time for the Lowdown, the things we’re dying to know but we’d usually bet too polite to ask any good girl.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Do you have sex during your period?

HEATHER: Meh, ish.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: What does that mean?

HEATHER: We will do some things but no insertion because I just can’t handle the mess. As long as there’s not going to be a blood flow situation, then yes.

LEAH: And does that go both ways? Is she still getting her period as well? HEATHER: She is younger than me, so yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: What’s the approximate number of sexual partners you’ve had? HEATHER: I literally don’t know. 40? 50? I don’t know.

LEAH: Do you prefer clit stimulation or penetration?

HEATHER: Clit stimulation for sure, instantly followed with penetration. But I don’t think I’ve ever had an

orgasm from penetration.

LEAH: Oh, okay.

HEATHER: I don’t think, so probably not. If you think you have it, you probably have it.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: It’s funny. The next question is can you orgasm from intercourse strap-on sex alone without any other?

HEATHER: Nope. I really like it but I like it as a follow up.

LEAH: Do the two of you tend to use strap-ons or hand toys? What do you use?

HEATHER: Either hands themselves or strap-ons, yeah.

LEAH: What is your favorite way to orgasm during sex?

HEATHER: I feel like I’m so vanilla to say this but I just really, really like straight up oral sex. I just really like it a lot.

LEAH: I don’t think there’s anything vanilla about that. It’s what you like. [LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Heather, thank you so much for being here and having this conversation with me. I really appreciate it. It’s been a lot of fun talking with you, so thank you.

HEATHER: Yeah, thank you so much. It’s really been a lot of fun for me too. I can’t wait to go out there and have her ask all the questions.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: I’ll be curious to hear whether you’re going to have really great sex tonight.

HEATHER: I know right? I’m literally sitting here just thinking like, “Can I? Should I? Will I?” Yeah.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Thanks for joining me today on Good Girls Talk About Sex. IF you’d like to be a guest on the show, please email me at leah@goodgirlstalkaboutsex.com. You can also find me on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube at GoodGirlsTalk.

I was only able to step outside my good girl box when someone I respected told me it was possible to do it. If you’d like to step outside a box that’s no longer working for you, I’m here to tell you it’s possible and I’d love to work with you. Join my mailing list to receive tools that help you name your desires and communicate them effectively to your partner or potential partners. Sign up at leahcarey.com.

I’m Leah Carey and I look forward to talking with you again next time. Here’s to your better sex life! [MUSIC]

Bookmark moments:

  • 2:22 – Heather’s first memory of sexual pleasure is at age five, discovering it felt good when the bath water hit “down there”; this opens up the topic of talking to one’s children about masturbation.
  • 11:00 – Heather’s loss of virginity as a teenager under less-than-great circumstances brings up the issues of consent and assault.
  • 16:19 – Heather and Leah talk about the confusion girls feel, often before they realize they are lesbian, around noticing female beauty because our culture teaches us early on to sexualize women.
  • 26:08 – The talk turns to body image, and Heather shares that she had a breast reduction at age 15 which helped her comfort and confidence.
  • 31:00 – Heather meets her ex-husband at 26. The sex was “vanilla” and “hopefully quick.”
  • 33:00 – Heather meets a woman she’s wildly attracted to, and has a hot 2-week affair with her.
  • 35:57 – She and her husband experiment sexually with a lesbian couple. Complications ensue.
  • 38:00 – After divorcing, Heather accidentally “outs” herself on Facebook with her new partner.

The Lowdown (41:30)

  • Do you have sex during your period?
  • What is the approximate number of sex partners you’ve had?
  • Do you prefer clit stimulation or penetration?
  • Can you orgasm from penetration alone?
  • Do you use hands, or strap-ons?
  • What is your favorite way to orgasm during sex?

Extra Bits: Parental PSA: “I actually told my kids, you need to test this shit out. Do not marry somebody you haven’t had sex with. That is a terrible idea.”

The Patreon extras for this episode are FREE for everyone:

  • How Heather talks about sex with her daughters – and why she thinks Gilmore Girls is a great teaching tool!
  • The Extended Lowdown Q&A

Book a PJ Party!!!  All the info and registrations are at www.leahcarey.com/pjparty

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Host – Leah Carey (website, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, email)

Audio Editor – Gretchen Kilby

Music – Nazar Rybak