Jazz is a 31-year-old gender non-conforming, femme-identified person who uses the pronouns “they” and “theirs”. They describe themselves as black, polyamorous, and pansexual with an active dating life.

The major theme of this episode is gender. Jazz talks about how genitals are not the be-all-end-all of gender. If all of the recent talk about gender as a spectrum has you confused or uncomfortable, this is the episode to listen to!

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT (CLICK TO OPEN)

6 (Jazz ep35)

LEAH: Welcome to Good Girls Talk About Sex. I’m sex educator and sexual communication coach Leah Carey and this is a place to share conversations with all sorts of women about their experience of sexuality. These are unfiltered conversations between adult women talking about sex. If anything about the previous sentence offends you, turn back now! And if you’re looking for a trigger warning, you’re not going to get it from me. I believe that you are stronger than the trauma you have experienced. I have faith in your ability to deal with things that upset you. Sound good? Let’s start the show!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Jazz is a 31 year old gender non-conforming femme identified person. Jazz uses the pronouns “they/them” and describes themselves as black, polyamorous, and pansexual with an active dating life.

I want to be super transparent with you for a minute. It’s important to me to represent the stories of all ages, races, gender identities, body sizes, sexualities, relationship styles, etc. And I work hard behind the scenes to make that happen. In some aspects, I do well. Gender identity, body size, sexuality, and relationship styles are well-represented in these interviews. You may not know the body sizes covered because it doesn’t come up in every conversation but I promise you, the shapes and sizes of women in these conversations are pretty representative of the general population.

However, I’m still struggling in two areas, age diversity and racial diversity. I’ve been making a push recently to interview post-menopausal women and you’ll hear more about races in the coming months. Getting more voices from women of color remains a challenge. It makes sense. The sexuality of women of color has long been fetishized by the white population, so trusting me, a white woman, to tell your story might be tricky.

But, if you are a woman of color and you’ve considered sharing your story, please know that I am eager to talk with you. My goal is to treat everyone with the dignity and compassion that I would want for my own sister or mother or daughter. I’m grateful to the people of color like Jazz, Michelle, Laina, Terri, Yaz and others who have been willing to tell their stories. If you’re interested in joining them, please send me an email at leah@goodgirlstalkaboutsex.com

And now, I’m so pleased to introduce Jazz!

I am so excited to be talking to you. I’ve been looking forward to this interview since we set it up. We met earlier this summer at Sex Geek Summer Camp and I just really enjoy your presence in the room and I’m super excited to have this conversation with you. So thanks for being here.

JAZZ: Hey, thank you so much for having me. I’ve also been looking forward to it.

LEAH: So I start all of my interviews the same way which is what is your first memory of sexual

pleasure? [LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: Oh, that’s a good one. I want to say some point in elementary school and I would get these sort of attacks of pleasure that I didn’t really know that’s what they were because more or less I would just be daydreaming. Usually I would be walking. Picture like afternoon time after school sort of thing. I’d be walking home or maybe on the way to school, I’d just think about someone in particular that I was crushing on super hard and I would get these tingly, all body whooshes of feeling and it was great.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: I love that idea, attacks of pleasure. [LAUGHTER]

LEAH: I’ve never heard anybody use that phrase before.

JAZZ: If you don’t have any context, it’s like a full body sudden feeling. It’s like I’m sure there are people my age who had similar experiences who saw it like a fear response or, I don’t know, needing to jump around in the playground like who knows, right? The interpretation of the sensation can be so different.

LEAH: So when you had those experiences, was it full body, was it genitally focused, do you have a recollection of that?

JAZZ: Yeah. I mean, of course, it’s with my adult lens and a few decades behind looking back, I would say that it would generally stir, pants feelings, as I liked to call them.

[LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: Then radiate outward and what would feel like the attack part would land somewhere in my chest or go through my head and I’m trying my best to not assign a sort of spiritual thing to that because that was not present in my life at that time. But it is uncanny to me that the heart and head were the next places that I knew it was coming out from my crotch or my groin area.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Interesting. So at what point did you correlate those in pants feelings that you were having to something that you actually want to express or do something about?

JAZZ: Yeah. I mean I would say that it just was a couple of grades down the line. I kind of considered myself a late bloomer because I don’t think I formally thought about my body/genitals and intimacy and sexuality and I was about thirteen. Maybe I was sort of starting to think about it at twelve, but I wasn’t connecting it to my body. It was still very much like, “This person looks cute to me. I like them.” And it would just lay there.

By the time I was about thirteen, I noticed that if I was sitting on my hands in school, it was a thing I would do at my desk, and it’s like I became self-conscious without anybody telling me I needed to and I was like, “What is that about?” But a year from there, I was actually engaging with my own body.

LEAH: Yeah. Do you remember the first time you masturbated?

JAZZ: Very. Vividly.

[LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: Because I was almost fourteen years old so it wasn’t like I was a little person. I was just a minor tween. So yeah, that had a lot to do with David Bowie.

[LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: That particular movie that all my friends who still connect with me from that time know which movie that is and yeah, I kind of just had a special moment by myself and from then on out, I got interested in repeating the experience because I more or less passed out. I climaxed and then was just not there.

LEAH: So it was really intense for you.

JAZZ: I was just really following sensation. I had no idea what I was supposed to be doing really. I wasn’t thinking about it. I guess there’s a whole parallel conversation about being embodied and disembodied aura disassociated and I definitely was a person who disassociated on and off throughout my whole life. So it’s kind of funky to think about my first time masturbating and how that was at play but perhaps in the positive way.

LEAH: So can you talk a little bit more about the distinction that you just brought up about embodied disembodied associated?

JAZZ: I can, more so when I was younger, do a manner of things without feeling connected to my body or remembering that I had a body that I was inhabiting. And that wasn’t just because I was nerdy and reading a lot.

It was a lot of background in performative arts at a young age. And just being told how to move my body, being handled by people, and just sort of accepting it and moving through those experiences.

LEAH: That’s really interesting. I mean I’ve certainly talked to a lot of people who, and I myself have experienced, that feeling of disembodied as a result of trauma. But hearing it described as a result of people sort of using your body in a potentially positive way like as a dancer or as someone on stage, I never thought about that that way and it totally makes sense when you say it.

JAZZ: Yeah, and to clarify, I would say that positive disassociation, I think I would more readily associate with ecstatic states, which is what I believed happened to me the first time I masturbated.

When it comes to performing arts and how they deal with people under 18, I have a lot of criticism/critique and I don’t think it was a good thing. But it’s also how my body learned to survive and manage a lot of complex dynamics so I don’t want to shame disassociation as a subject or the performing arts. I can leave that to the pros.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Well I am curious. Can you give us a specific scenario where you experienced this? Because I think this would be a really unfamiliar conversation for a lot of people.

JAZZ: Sure. We can also just throw in my favorite elephant in the room, which is like anti- blackness, and that would be my gigantic critique of theatre, particularly how you bring up people of color in a theatre tradition that is inherently Eurocentric.

But to just bring it home. A moment that has stuck with me forever. I had a teacher in my senior year at LaGuardia Performing Arts High School where I studied drama and I was in the senior play along with my buds playing one of five black roles in a 20 cast production. And I had a teacher say in a rehearsal in front of the whole class that I should both wear black because I’m black because we were doing a costume lighting check, and also that I should sound more black, which was obviously, wildly inappropriate and inaccurate things to say to a human being.

And instead of calling him out on it or just having any kind of reaction, I just stood there and that’s a type of disassociation. Freeze, maybe a response. Things like that would happen all the time. Worse things would happen to darker skinned folks in the industry, my peers. Folks that are listening, I’m a light-skinned, mixed race person and so my experience is never going to be as effed up as a darker skinned person.

So we’re talking about things like disassociation and pleasure and embodiment where I stand in the world of blackness and where others like me sit are just really never not there. It’s all part of the experience, influencing the situation.

LEAH: So as long as we’re sort of talking about your place in society, let’s also bring in the fact that you are gender non-conforming. So at what point did you begin to understand that as part of your experience and also I want to say here that because this is an experience that I don’t have, there may be questions that I ask or language that I use that is not a hundred percent appropriate because I just don’t know, so please feel free to correct me at any point.

JAZZ: Thank you.

LEAH: Yeah. At what point did gender non-conforming become something that you were

consciously dealing with?

JAZZ: Yeah. Timelines and markers are always so fascinating especially when we’re talking about the gender spectrum. So I would say the official start date was around the same time that I started to develop my own sexuality.

When I was around fourteen or fifteen, I started wanting to wear suits and ties and wanting to purposely appear androgynous and all of those markers are just a few ways in which to do that. They were the only ones I knew at the time and there’s a whole interesting thing about what do we see as androgynous, what do we see as gender non-conforming and how often it can skew towards male.

Tying in my personal experience with that, being a mega David Bowie fan and essentially more of as worshipping a white dude. And so that’s when it all began and it was pretty innocent to me. I don’t know.

I was a 90s kid, I was brought up to be whoever you want and so I just assumed that whatever I wanted would just be accepted. And it is tough. It was definitely tough. But I also just don’t really think it was a thing that began then, it was just a thing like you said, that’s when I started to think about it for myself instead of doing what I did and noticing side-eye glances from people. Comments from my peers like, “What are you doing? What are you doing with your hair? Why are you wearing blue mascara?” And I was like, “Why am I not? What’s the problem here?”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So I think that a lot of people who don’t experience what it is to be non-conforming or non-binary, wrestle a bit about the idea of do you just want to be the other gender but you’re just not willing to transition or is it that you don’t want any genitals at all. I think there are a lot of questions about what that actually means. So what does it mean to you?

JAZZ: I don’t believe in binaries. I can’t really exist as a human if they’re real and they’re not real both. I mean they’re not real in as much as constructs that we create like male and female are made and that’s what makes them real. And apart from that, not so much. But also scientifically, biologically speaking, we know that there’s a spectrum. There aren’t just two points. They get to be there and people still get to have those identities but we’re hopefully more and more moving away from the false notion that those are the only two options.

LEAH: So biologically, I think a lot of people are familiar with the idea of intersex that some people are born with either both sets of genitalia or one presenting and one not presenting, that’s what people are familiar with. But there’s more than just that. There’s not just like male, female, then somewhere in the middle. There’s like a bazillion points on that spectrum that science can show us. The idea that there’s just boy and just girl and you’re mentally messed up if you’re not one of those, is patently scientifically false.

JAZZ: Yes, and it’s also super easy to fall into the trap of making it about genitals because gender is a construct. Your body shapes are your body shapes and apart from sometimes when we’re in the doctor’s office these things are relevant, what your body parts may or may do where things like the urethra fall might be relevant and you might need different types of exams and heights of scooting your booty up like that.

[LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: That’s maybe relevant sometimes, but goodness gracious, it’s just not about the genitals. This idea of are you either neither? I say, yes, and it’s not to be funny, it’s because for me personally, my trans fluid identity is just that sometimes I am Jazz man and sometimes I am Jazz girl and sometimes I’m not any of those things and that’s true whenever it’s true. And I’m not the only person like that. There are people for whom it’s different but it’s not tied to the crotch shapes.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: I love that. So let’s see. In your personal timeline, we’ve gotten up to the first masturbation. So let’s move forward from there to what was the first experience of engaging with another person?

JAZZ: I had a boyfriend when I was like fifteen or sixteen and we engaged with our bodies together at that time. I was a sophomore in high school.

LEAH: Meaning you had intercourse with him?

JAZZ: That of course and there were other things. So engaging with a body to me includes

mutual masturbation and I think that counts. My first penetrative act was anal. LEAH: Was that something you consciously chose to go to anal first?

JAZZ: It was an agreement I made with my partner at the time and it was something that I consented to. I definitely also think that there were things about that relationship that I look back on and I realize I wasn’t good at bringing negotiation to the table. I was really good at meeting it and being a fuck yes. As most first time sexual encounters are, it wasn’t that great. I didn’t really enjoy much. I do feel like I was a yes to the situation and was engaging in the way that I wanted to with the person that I wanted to do it with.

LEAH: SO I’m curious about the first time being anal because unless I know that in some situations where the message is that you have to be a “virgin” until your married so they go to anal sex rather than vaginal sex. Other than that, I’m not familiar with a lot of people choosing anal as their first time, so what brought that about for you?

JAZZ: No. That’s where I go to I was not a strong negotiator at that time. More or less, my partner had an extra concern, worry, fear about pregnancy and so before we were even going to have vaginal sex with his body parts, I needed to be on birth control and even though we always also chose to use condoms. I was a safety girl at the time.

[LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: Yeah. That’s basically why it happened because you can’t get pregnant easily as I hope most of your viewers know and it’s okay if you don’t but now you do.

[LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: No shame. But yeah, that’s basically why it happened and as soon as I hit my thirty day mark of the birth control. Thanks to Planned Parenthood for being discreet and free. I just didn’t really do much anal after that.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Your reviews at Apple Podcast make my day! Hearing from you is what lets me know that I’m on the right track with this podcast. For instance, Jessi Kneeland wrote, “I love love love the discussions I’ve heard so far in this podcast and I can’t wait to dive into the rest of the episodes.” Thanks Jessie.

And I love love love the two episodes you’ve done with me sharing your story and voice.

If you’re eager to hear more of these conversations, there are tons of extras at Patreon.com/GoodGirlsTalkAboutSex for every episode.

This week at Patreon, Jazz talks about their journey in discovering non-monogamy plus you’ll get to hear the extended Q and A. Join us at Patreon.com/GoodGirlsTalkAboutSex

By becoming a community supporter, you’ll help make this podcast self-sustaining well into the future. And if you want to support the podcast in non-monetary ways, please think of a couple of friends you could share it with. You can even host a listening party with a group of your friends.

[MUSIC]

JAZZ: I didn’t really have another regular sex partner until I was 19. So I went somewhere between two and a half three years with basically no contact with other bodies. Good thing I had a vibrator.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Okay, so let’s talk about that, where did you get your vibrator as a teenager?

JAZZ: The first one I got was down at Christopher Street, just one of the many shops that are available. So I just ran in, looked around really quick because my friends wouldn’t go in with me, and I was also not supposed to be in there so I was trying to be quick before anyone figured out that I was a minor. And I bought an external toy and that was my first toy.

And then this is where the timeline gets fuzzy, did I buy the rabbit before or after? I’m pretty sure I bought it after.

[LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: It was more expensive so I had to save up my babysitting money. [LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: Yeah, vibrators changed my life and I became a person who could always orgasm because of them, with them. And there’s the interesting disconnect between that and when I would randomly hook up with a person from school. And I just integrated more media and I didn’t have access to porn video style outside of Robin Byrd cable access stuff. So I would find erotica books in Barnes and Noble or at second hand stores, thrift book stores and what not. And start to read stuff and use my vibe or watch movies that had particularly hot people in them like Velvet Goldmine *cough cough* Ewan McGregor, but you know just that sort of what happened in terms of the evolution.

LEAH: And at what point did you realize that you were interested in multiple types of bodies? JAZZ: Almost at the same point that I started to masturbate.

LEAH: And was that a confusion to you or did it just feel natural to you that that was who you were?

JAZZ: No confusion outside of I didn’t know that femme and/or women identified could be into one another because of media and growing up, again, in the 90s, gay was a hot-button issue for many many reasons, but it was still presented as cis white male. It didn’t occur to me and then once it did, within a few weeks, I was saying to my close friends who I trusted. I was lucky to have two friends, one of who is straight and one of who is not, maybe she identified as queer or not. We’re not connected anymore. But they were just like, “Oh. Yeah. You like women. Okay.”

[LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: But I didn’t know what to do with that and beyond that but I’m also now hanging out with kids who are LGBTQ on the weekends.

LEAH: So what was your first experience with a female bodied person?

JAZZ: I made out with a girl at a gay party. Her name was Aurora which I’m not sure if that was her real name but really, really pretty eyes and was very gentle in her light demeanor and that was more or less all I needed.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So it was a good experience?

JAZZ: Yeah. I was pretty chased. I had a lot of PG-13 experiences until I started to have a boyfriend and then it shifted.

LEAH: Once you started having the more R-rated experiences, that’s actually something that I thought about with myself like once you move to R-rated activities with a given partner, it’s hard to bring them back sometimes to just PG-13.

JAZZ: Oh my God! It’s like I’m just getting back to that now. I’ve been fortunate enough to have more encounters and experiences recently that are more matching my own sexual appetite and intimate needs. So I’ve had to do more elevator pitches and I’ve started telling people that I masturbate as straight because I love kissing and normal P and V, vaginal and phallic intercourse experiences.

I can really be very normative in my desires if you will, which goes to show that it really is natural and these things that we enjoy don’t necessarily need to get wrapped up. I’m not just saying that with an educator hat on, it’s something that I have to tell myself, really feeling at peace with my own desires and what they happen to look like.

LEAH: Yeah, I feel very fortunate that after a string of partners with whom once things went R, they never went back, I now have a partner who a huge portion of what we do is very PG-13. We spend a lot of time just touching and kissing. It’s the best, it really is. And I said this multiple times on this podcast, P and V, penis and vagina intercourse is kind of the least frequent thing

that we do and I’m absolutely thrilled about it. I enjoy that, but it’s not the thing that we do the most and that’s awesome.

JAZZ: Yeah, and that’s one version of normal. Your sex life is super-hot and it is just what you described.

LEAH: You mentioned that you now identify as solo poly, or single poly, and I think that’s going to be a term that a lot of people are not familiar with and it’s also a term that a lot of people disagree about the meaning of. So can you talk about what that means to you?

JAZZ: Yeah. All it means to me is that I am poly or non-monogamous oriented in my relationship styles but I’m not currently in a partnership or relationship that has an official label. Although I slightly take that back because I learned a new term called comet partner and I’m technically doing that with someone right now. But it’s brand new. It’s like three or four months old.

LEAH: I’ve never heard that term. What does it mean?

JAZZ: You don’t live together. You don’t live together or live near each other so like this person

is in Canada and not the part that’s close to New York. [LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: She’s in Toronto, unfortunately. But yeah, comet partners are people who you don’t have a regular me time with or close proximity to but the feeling or level of connectedness is more or less what you would assign to a person who would be a partner.

LEAH: So are you currently looking for what some people would call a nesting partner or an anchor partner or someone who is sort of a primary partner? Or is that even an interest for you?

JAZZ: I think I’m a very partner-oriented type of human. It may be the only didactic thing about me is that I do well in pairs but I also like triad energy and find that I gravitate towards engaging with couples or being in a couple that engages with a third. That was more the first way that I experienced it. My femme partner and I had a third that became our partner and then we were a triad.

LEAH: Was that person male bodied or female bodied?

JAZZ: Yeah, he was of the dude-ly persuasion.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: And that was a good meshing of energies for all three of you?

JAZZ: It was for the honeymoon phase and then it eventually got complex. [LAUGHTER]

LEAH: One of the things I often talk about in these interviews is body image. How has body image affected your experience of sex? And on top of that, for you, the non-gender conforming piece, how has your relationship with your body affected your experience of sex?

JAZZ: Well, I mean there was a big portion of my life where I was just like, “Yeah. I’m a girl.” And it was always with that ambivalence, but because of my limited understanding of trans identity at that time, I was like, ‘Well, I don’t want to change things that I have and I do more or less like the things that I have going on in terms of shapes and body and so, I guess I’m a woman and a girl.” And that was just reinforced by everyone in my life in every single way and so that was very damaging and that’s not anyone’s fault like the people that I’m close to, the relationships that I’ve mentioned thus far.

We knew what we did at the time but I look back on it and I’m just like wow, I’m just really being put in this box that never fucking fit and as a result, having I would say, stunted sexual experiences or plateaued experiences. I felt like I found some things that worked that were pleasurable with my regular partners in a more casual pickup way. But other whole important pieces of myself were just left out so that the result was what happened, how I was impacted was not wholly or truly myself until I would say three years ago.

LEAH: And what happened three years ago?

JAZZ: I found a gender queer partner who was more clearer on what they were seeing me reflect to them than what I was seeing myself. So I would say things and then they would repeat it back and I would realize, “Oh. I really did just say that.” I am doing a thing that I didn’t like because I feel like I have to and this partner is telling me that they don’t care about any of those things.

I didn’t start allowing my chin hair to grow until after I had my fibroid surgery and with the encouragement of my then partner. They were like, “You hate doing this. You hate plucking and then you get pimples and you get frustrated.” I do want to clarify there was never pressure and that actually was part that was so helpful, there was just frank discussion and honest reflection. Freaking words coming out our mouths.

So yeah, three years ago, I started dating a gender queer person and for the first time in my life, having those things validated all the time in unexpected little and big ways. In the same way that any good relationship, you find yourself being validated and you just didn’t know that that was something you were looking for. It’s just supportiveness.

LEAH: What kinds of responses do you get from the fact you have chin hair?

JAZZ: I’m just going to say, the number one response or query I get is whether or not I’m on hormones which is both an interesting discussion and also really rude. It’s incredibly invasive and it is next to asking me what my genitals are. I’ve not lived in a trans body that lives with that question so I’m not saying they’re equivalent but in terms of invasiveness, privacy, overemphasis of genitals to identity, it’s the same kind of thing.

I’m not going to write a blog entry about this one because I want people to know they don’t realize. Most of the time the people who ask me are folks who maybe don’t have much experience talking about gender so I definitely understand that context. But there have been a few people who did, who asked and it’s like very right away. It’s not like we’re in a deep discussion like maybe we’ve just begun. It would be like finding out someone can’t have kids like, “Oh. You’re this age. So when are you going to start?” That’s like a cruel question and a conversation that I can maybe have but, “Hello. I need some gender foreplay.”

[LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: Gender foreplay before we’re getting up deep in that. But I mean I also have no shame. I did go on hormones and I don’t mind telling people that because I think it’s really important to recognize that this is a spectrum. And there are women-identified people who look like me who have facial hair that is seen as more than expected by society.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Before we finish up, let’s get the lowdown. The questions we’re dying to know but we would be too polite to ask any good girl.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Do you have sex during your period?

JAZZ: Uh-huh.

[LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: That’s one of the ways that you could get rid of the cramps too, depending on your relationship to your menses.

LEAH: Can you orgasm from intercourse or strap-on sex alone without any other stimulation? JAZZ: Yes. I can orgasm in all kinds of ways including without being touched.

LEAH: Really?

JAZZ: Uh-huh.

LEAH: What does that look like?

JAZZ: It looks like body convulsions and strange moans. [LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Okay. Let me ask that question differently. [LAUGHTER]

LEAH: How do you get there?

JAZZ: I’m sorry. Of course that’s what you meant. [LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: This is a shout out to Barbara Carrellas and Urban Tantra. I learned about the energy orgasm which is sort of her framing of tantric techniques that she learned and so, there’s a couple of ways that you can do that. Sometimes, it’s just literally I’ve had sexual engagement and stop and have an orgasm from that physical touch and then the orgasm continues on. That can happen. There’s like a squeezing body one, It’s called the squeeze and hold that I like to do a lot and you just squeeze all your body parts, your fists, your toes and then you let go and you can do that .I can do that to achieve orgasm.

LEAH: Do you prefer the orgasm from masturbating or sex with another person? JAZZ: With another person. I’ve logged in enough hours of solo play. [LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: But that extra variable with another brain is just so great.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Have you ever had a threesome or more?

JAZZ: I’ve had so many threesomes. I love threesomes and technically I lived a threesome life when I was in my triad. I’ve had more than that. In that first year of college, when I was already 19. It was the summer time and during that I had my first fivesome/simultaneous orgasm. I started with setting the bar high.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Do you enjoy group sex?

JAZZ: Yeah. It’s one of the things I live for spiritually, energetically, yeah. My body seems to like

it a lot too.

LEAH: Have you ever had public sex?

JAZZ: Yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: Usually, it’s like an event that is reserved. I’ve had illegal public sex too, I was just lucky enough to not get caught.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Where was that?

JAZZ: Once was in a middle school auditorium with another middle schooler illegally even when we’re both underage. And another time was at a bar at an event.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: I’ve only had sex in illegal space once and it was very early on. It wasn’t something that I wanted to do but I did it anyway and it was in Central Park on a rock that was just off the path.

[LAUGHTER]

JAZZ: What? Public public.

LEAH: Yeah. It was super public and not getting busted. The cops can be really harsh in Central Park sometimes. I would not say it was non-consensual because I said yes to it but it wasn’t something that I wanted to do.

JAZZ: I’m sorry about that.

LEAH: But it makes a great story.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Not that I would ever suggest anybody do something you don’t want to do just for the story.

JAZZ: Exactly.

LEAH: Jazz, thank you so much. It has been such a pleasure to have this conversation with you. Thank you.

JAZZ: Yeah, I’m grateful for the chance to speak in a real way and tell my own story. In a lot of ways the title has thrown me on a loop because I don’t identify as a girl anymore but it is nice to be welcomed into it and also be able to tell my life when that was real because it still feels like it’s a part of me even if it wasn’t the right story or even if it was some kind of weird stop along the way that never quite fit, it’s there.

LEAH: Well, thank you. [MUSIC]

LEAH: Thank you for joining me today on Good Girls Talk About Sex. If you’d like to be a guest on the show, please email me at leah@goodgirlstalkaboutsex.com

You can also find me on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube at GoodGirlsTalk. I was only able to step outside my good girl box when someone I respected told me it was possible to do it. If you’d like to step out of a box that’s no longer working for you, I’m here to tell you it’s possible and I’d love to work with you. Join my mailing list to receive tools that help you name your desires and communicate them effectively to your partner or potential partners. Sign up at leahcarey.com.

I’m Leah Carey and I look forward to talking with you again next time. Here’s to your better sex life!

[MUSIC]

Here are some of the notable moments they shared with us:

  • 3:55 – Jazz’s “attacks of pleasure” in elementary school
  • 7:45 – Their first time masturbating at age 14
  • 9:40 – How training as a performer left them disembodied and dissociated
  • 13:50 – The emergence of Jazz’s gender non-conforming identity
  • 16:10 – What non-binary means
  • 19:25 – Jazz’s first boyfriend, including a lack of negotiation and advocacy for themselves
  • 24:40 – Discovering vibrators and toys
  • 26:10 – Discovering attraction to multiple kinds of bodies and kissing a girl for the first time
  • 30:20 – Jazz’s defines what “solo-poly” means to them
  • 30:48 – What is a comet partner?
  • 32:00 – Trying out triad relationships
  • 32:56 – How Jazz’s body shape has impacted their experience of sex—not being able to be fully themself because partners have identified them as female
  • 37:00 – Being affirmed in a recent relationship and embracing their chin hair
  • 41:30 – The joys of group sex

The Lowdown:

  • Do you have sex during your period?
  • Can you orgasm from intercourse or strap-on sex alone?
  • Do you prefer the orgasm from masturbation or partnered sex?
  • Have you ever had a threesome or more?
  • Have you ever had public sex?

The Patreon extras for this episode are:

  • At the $5/month level, Jazz talks about their journey to discovering non-monogamy
  • At the $7/month level, that conversation plus the extended Q&A
  • At the $10/month level, all that plus a monthly Ask Me Anything!

Learn more and become a community supporter at www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex.

If you like this show, please leave a rating and review at https://ratethispodcast.com/goodgirls

Want to be on the show? Visit www.leahcarey.com/guest and let me know that you’re interested. I’d love to talk with you!

To learn about Sexual Communication Coaching, visit www.leahcarey.com/coaching

Host – Leah Carey (Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, email)

Editor – Gretchen Kilby

Music by – Nazar Rybak