I imagined group sex while masturbating – Michelle

Michelle wanted multiple partners and group sex even while surfing through old-school hetero-normative porn on the family computer.
Good Girls Talk About Sex
I imagined group sex while masturbating - Michelle
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Sometimes desires arise in the imagination long before you have a chance to try them in real life. Michelle knew she wanted multiple partners and group arrangements—with people of all genders—even while surfing through old-school hetero-normative porn on the family computer. Now she’s publicly polyamorous and fully out on Instagram, defining her terms by living them.

Michelle is a 29-year-old cisgender woman. She describes herself as Asian, bisexual, polyamorous and partnered. She describes her body as fat and chubby.

Find her online at www.polyamorouswhileasian.com and www.instagram.com/polyamorouswhileasian

In this episode we talk about

  • Sexuality for Asian-American women
  • Polyamory/non-monogamy
  • Early porn use
  • Bisexual vs pansexual
  • Relationship anarchy
  • Non-monogamy terms

Resources

GLOSSARY

Kitchen table polyamory – A type of non-monogamy where everyone knows each other’s partners. Ideally, everyone is comfortable enough together to sit down at the kitchen table and have dinner.

Metamour – Your lover’s lover – a person who is also involved with your partner.

Nesting partner – A partner you live with.

Anchor partner – A partner with whom you’re deeply entwined.

Solo polyamory – A polyamorous person who chooses to maintain a single lifestyle, rather than creating a shared future with any single partner

Relationship anarchy – A type of polyamory where every relationship is separate and no one relationship takes priority over any other relationship.

Consensual Non-Consent – A type of kinky activity where partners pre-negotiate a scene to role play a non-consensual sex act.

 

OTHER RESOURCES:

Book – Sex at Dawn

Book – ABCs of the Human Body

Michelle’s favorite sex toy – Ollie from Unbound

Full episode text

LEAH: Welcome to Good Girls Talk About Sex. I am sex and intimacy coach, Leah Carey. And this is a place to share conversations with all sorts of women about their experience of sexuality. These are unfiltered conversations between adult women talking about sex. If anything about the previous sentence offends you, turn back now! And if you’re looking for a trigger warning, you’re not going to get it from me. I believe that you are stronger than the trauma you have experienced. I have faith in your ability to deal with things that upset you. Sound good? Let’s start the show!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Hey, friends. I’ve talked before on the pod about how challenging it can be to get guests who represent certain parts of the population. And that includes Asian women. Because there are so many harmful stereotypes about Asian women, I actually think it’s important to acknowledge some of the very valid reasons they might choose to not appear on a show like this one.

Stereotypes include being quiet, shy, and submissive, but also they’re assumed to be hypersexual because we’ve learned to associate Asian women with geishas and happy ending massages. And specifically in this time, in the United States when the Asian American and Pacific Islander communities are experiencing a significant increase in violence against them, is it really any wonder that an individual woman might think, why would I talk to a white woman about my sex life?

So, no matter how much I explain the goals of the show or the types of interviews I do, it’s really valid for that woman to resist anything that she thinks might further the mythology that Asian woman are hypersexual and submissive.

So, all of that is a preface to the fact that I’m thrilled to introduce you to today’s guest, Michelle. I met Michelle on Instagram where she has the @polyamorouswhileasian account. She’s got a lot of really great content there. So, check her out. That link is in the show notes.

And I want to give you a little forewarning that if you’re not familiar with some of the terms used in non-monogamous communities, you’re going to want to click over to the glossary I’ve put together in the show notes. I tried to make sure we stopped and explained each of the words we were using at the moment that we used them, but listening back, I realized we missed a whole bunch. So, if you want to understand what terms like kitchen table polyamory and metamours and nesting partners and consensual non-consent mean, visit the show notes to read the glossary.

All right. Michelle is a 29-year-old cisgender woman. She describes herself as Asian, bisexual, polyamorous and partnered. She describes her body as fat and chubby. I am so pleased to introduce Michelle!

Michelle, I am so excited to have you here. I reached out to you I think on Instagram. It’s always dicey to reach out to someone who has absolutely no idea who I am and say, “Hey, do you want to come on a podcast and talk about your sex life?” So, thank you so much for coming to join me. I’m thrilled to have you here.

MICHELLE: Yeah. Thank you for inviting me on. And I honestly love talking about my sex life. So, when you reached out, it was a rudimental browsing to make sure just who you are, and then I was like, “Yeah, sure. Let’s talk about sex.”

LEAH: Awesome.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Let’s dive right in. The first question I ask everyone is what is your first memory of sexual pleasure?

MICHELLE: Geez, I think I was pretty young and, of course, this was before I had any vocabulary for it. I was making this stuff up in my mind. I think I was pretty young around 4 or 5 when I started just noticing it feels good when I shift myself around or whatever. And I remember having just that vague concept of what sex was through movies or something, the stuff you’re not supposed to look at, but your parents are like, “Close your eyes.”

And so, I remember as a kid, I didn’t know it was called sex. But because of my perception of it, I called smoothing in my head because I think I had this conception of skin against skin in a very smooth way, especially in that softcore way that a lot of movies portray it.

LEAH: Yeah, I get it. That’s amazing.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: So, yeah, my brain just came up with smoothing.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: And yeah, that’s the earliest that I can remember.

LEAH: Is there a point at which you thought, shifting around feels good, so maybe if I do it more intentionally, it will feel even better? Was there a point at which it became more conscious for you?

MICHELLE: There definitely was a point. I can’t remember the specific point, but there definitely was a shift because I remember even at school, I would be at the edge of my chair or something, just rocking back and forth.

But even at that time, I definitely knew it was a “shameful” thing or something that you’re not supposed to do. And it’s really wild how early that really gets into our brains. But yeah, there was a shift eventually where at night or in the middle of the day when I know no one would be checking in on me that I would go off into my room and explore a little bit.

LEAH: And did you come to something that you would now think of as an orgasm or was it just an exploration of what felt good?

MICHELLE: It was mostly an exploration of what felt good. I honestly can’t remember when I first had my first orgasm. I know it was before the age of 10. But yeah, there are several years between that. And I think I discovered the removable shower head trick.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: Yeah, we had the removable shower head that had the different settings on it. I can’t quite remember when I first discovered that, maybe when I was 7 or so. And also, yeah, I think I had the sensations of an orgasm before I knew what that was, which is part of why I think it’s hard to remember when I first started that.

LEAH: Absolutely, yeah. I think a lot of kids are having orgasms without having any language for it. And so, they’re not even sure if it’s a thing, let alone what it is, yeah. So, you said that you weren’t supposed to be watching the softcore movies. What were you hearing in your home about sex and sexuality?

MICHELLE: It’s hard to remember that young because I feel like there weren’t a lot of very explicit notions about it until I was puberty age. But yeah, it’s very interesting. My mother, always with movies and TV shows, violence definitely was a lot more acceptable to view and to consume and stuff. But anything sexual, even the suggestion of it, yeah, anything suggestive was just like, “No, turn it off or don’t watch it or anything like that.”

So, yeah, there was always that weird balance. But yeah, it wasn’t until I think at puberty that I really remember explicit messages of like, “Don’t have sex. You’ll get pregnant and stuff or whatever. Just you shouldn’t do it.” Yeah.

LEAH: So, you identify as Asian American you told me. Are both of your parents Asian or are you mixed race?

MICHELLE: Yeah, my parents are from China and Taiwan.

LEAH: Okay. So, were you aware of receiving different messages around sex and sexuality than your other friends who maybe came from white families?

MICHELLE: Yeah. It’s an interesting one because I think also in a way, I wasn’t raised religious. That was also a different thing because basically elementary school through high school almost everyone that I was friends with was raised with some sort of religious background, mostly some sort of Christianity. And because of that, I think there’s that flavor of sexual shame and just taboo and whatnot. So, I feel like there is some parallel there.

I remember when I was in middle school and that was around the first time I read my first book that had racy scenes. It was an Anne Rice book I think. No, it was a Stephen King book and there were these explicit scenes in there. And I remember on the bus or at lunch or whatever showing my friends like, “Look at what it says here.” And yeah, we all had similar reactions. And there were even some kids that were like, “No, I won’t be reading that. That’s not good.”

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: But yeah, we didn’t really talk about it a whole lot.

LEAH: So, I think I just want to stop here and put a pin for a second in the fact that I approach a fair number of Asian people to be on this show because diversity and representation is really important to me. And it’s very rare for someone of Asian descent to say yes. And I think there are a lot of reasons for that that are cultural as well as just why does this white woman want to ask me about my sex life?

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, I have a lot of questions that are about how you as an Asian person learned about sex and deal with sex. And I also want to say that there are things I don’t know. So, if I ask anything in an inappropriate way, would you be okay with letting me know?

MICHELLE: Yeah.

LEAH: Okay, thank you. So, what about your parents? Did you see them being affectionate? What kinds of dynamics were you seeing in your household around intimacy and sexuality?

MICHELLE: So, my parents divorced when I was around 6 or 7 years old. And so, with regard to that, I don’t really remember intimacy between my biological parents very much. After that, my sister and I stayed with our mother.

And so, I think since I was a little bit older, I feel like I could process it a little bit more than my sister could at the time. I think negatively, it impacted her a bit because she was so young. But yeah, my mom for a while was a serial monogamist until she remarried. And so, as a kid, living under the same roof as a parent who is actively dating, you’ll see stuff and hear stuff no matter how well they try to hide it.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: It’s not a huge house. So, yeah, stuff happens.

LEAH: Yeah. And was she dating mostly white men since you said that you were in a largely white area? White Christian men?

MICHELLE: Yeah, right. Especially in Portland and the Portland area, it is just a predominantly white population. And then, there could be this whole conversation about with Asian folks that have notion of assimilation and whatnot.

LEAH: Is she married now?

MICHELLE: She is married now, yeah, and also has two other children. So, I have a total of three sisters.

LEAH: Okay. And so, is this the same marriage that you mentioned when you were younger? She got married when you were younger?

MICHELLE: So, she got divorced when I was about 7. And then when she remarried, I was about 13 or 14.

LEAH: So, when she got remarried, what kind of intimacy or affection did you see between her and her new husband, if any?

MICHELLE: I think she was still pretty cagey with regard to showing sexuality and whatnot. And so, she just continued to hide that fact and everything, yeah.

LEAH: So, was there ever any conversation as you started growing up and going through puberty? Did she have the talk with you?

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: Yeah, it’s very interesting. So, I definitely I think was of an age with regard to the internet as well that I had unfettered access to the internet for a bit. And so, I started watching porn and stuff at a fairly young age on the family computer.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Did you know how to delete the browser history yet?

MICHELLE: Absolutely not. And I am almost 100% certain that my mom saw some pretty dodgy sites in the history or whatever and has never talked to me about it because she’s just so uncomfortable talking about those things. So, I’m absolutely certain that that’s happened.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: But yeah, when I first got my period, I was about 11. And so, that’s when my mom gave me the talk. But it’s also previously before that, I remember I think I was probably about 10 that my mom with her boyfriend at the time, I honestly can’t remember how it came up, but all I remember is we were all in the car together and my mom’s boyfriend was driving. And somehow it came.

And so, he was doing his best to address the topic. I honestly can’t remember word for word what was said, but it was just so clear that my mom was just so uncomfortable with the topic that it was almost on him to discuss certain things about what sex was. And I just remember the feeling of it being so odd. My sister and I in the backseat, we’re driving to or from somewhere and my mom’s being very quiet. So, yeah, when we finally did the talk, I remember I had to pretend that I didn’t know as much as I did.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: That I have not seen as much as I’ve seen for better and worse. I remember I walked in my mom’s room. She called me in and she had this image up on the computer of a basically black and white very basic diagram of a penis and stuff with labels and arrows and whatnot. And part of it was because even since I was a little kid, I just haven’t been very good with stress and my emotions, but also I was trying to ham it up a little bit. And so, I start crying a little bit.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: And I think partially also because I knew that that would make my mom uncomfortable too and would soften whatever she was going to try to say. And so, I remember crying a little bit and her holding me.

And again, I don’t remember word for word what she said, but she’s like, “This is a penis. If you have sex, you’re going to get pregnant. So, don’t do it.” I feel like that was the gist of it. And I definitely played up the innocent, “This is also scary,” and crying. God, it was just so awkward.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, you said that you were watching porn on the family computer. What kinds of porn were you watching? What topics?

MICHELLE: I can’t remember a lot specifically. I do know that I would not just look up porn sites. Even though I have access to porn sites, I don’t even remember what I would type in. Porn into Google or something, I don’t remember.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: But I would also look up Wikipedia articles of the genitals because in some Wikipedia articles, they also have explicit pictures on there, masturbation or something. And also, I remember at the time, the era of flash games.

I would go onto websites that had explicit flash games. And so, then I would play those and I played a lot of really very explicit sexual flash games and stuff. And yeah, that’s what I mostly remember. I definitely looked up other stuff. But yeah, I honestly can’t remember what I did to search for specific sites.

LEAH: That’s okay. What was it about those flash games that was so intriguing to you?

MICHELLE: I think it was just interactive, but also I think the mind of a kid too where it’s just like a game and whatever these animations and stuff like that. And I think it was also maybe in a way just less intimidating sometimes because it is very explicit, but it is still mostly cartoony. And also, I think eventually discovering animated porn and stuff that there’s just so much you can do when you’re just animating something.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: I just thought it was fun and sexually arousing at the same time.

LEAH: It’s really interesting to me that you weren’t just motivated by the physical pleasure. You also were motivated by curiosity about the topic of sex so that you were going out and seeking all of these things and the arousal along with the information that came with them.

MICHELLE: Yeah. Also, my grandparents had and I have that book today because I looked at that book so much, not just for the sexual content, there was a lot of stuff. There was a time when I was kid I wanted to be a doctor. So, there was a lot of stuff. So, a book called, I’m looking at it right now, ABC’s of the Human Body and the dust cover’s all tattered up and stuff at this point.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: But yeah, I remember there was this part where all the reproductive organs and about sex and whatever, I would definitely look at those pages. I would look at so many other parts of the book as well. But yeah, I just like learning about all parts. So, yeah, there was definitely a mix of being curious about sex in and of itself and the whole wide world out there at my fingertips via the interwebs, but also I guess just the technical side of it as well.

LEAH: Yeah.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Hey, friends. We’ve now had two classes in the Fall in Love with Your Sex Life series: A Year of Sexy Secrets. And I’m loving how it’s going. So far, we’ve talked about dipping your toes into kink and navigating sex if you have body image issues.

Coming up this Sunday, February 19th is Wanting to want sex: Diving into libido and desire. Then, the following week, Sunday, February 26th is I’m a feminist: Why do I want to be spanked? After that, we’ll transition to monthly classes on the final Sunday of each month beginning March 26th. All classes are at 8 PM Eastern, 5 PM Pacific. There’ll be 14 classes in total and you’re welcome to cherry pick the ones you want to attend or purchase a pass to get them all.

Plus if you missed the first two classes, you can now purchase recordings, so you don’t miss a thing. Classes are recorded, so everyone who registers will get a copy, whether you’re able to attend in person or not. You’re welcome to send questions in advance if you know you can’t be there and I’ll make sure to answer them on the recording. Each class is scheduled for 90 minutes and I’ll stay on the line with the recording running for up to another half hour to make sure we cover all of the questions you’ve got.

In our next class, Sunday, February 19th, we’re diving into the common lament, I want to want to sex: Why won’t my body get on board? The following week, we’ll talk about the hot topic of why spanking and feminism or any type of submission and being a strong female are not actually in conflict with each other at all.

Registration is open at www.leahcarey.com/classes. You can register for just the Wanting to want to sex: Diving into libido and desire class on February 19 or a bundle of the February classes or the entire series.

And to sweeten the pot, here’s an offer only for podcast listeners. Use the link in the show notes to leave a review for the Good Girls Talk About Sex podcast. When it’s posted, take a screenshot, send it to me, and I’ll send you a coupon for $5 off a class.

If you’re feeling turned on by the very idea of having these conversations in a safe, supportive, non-judgmental space, register right now while you’re still excited about it. It’s so easy to let your sex life take a backseat to all of the other stressors. So, flip the script right now while you’re feeling the energy. Make sex a priority. Go to www.leahcarey.com/classes to register and that link is in the show description of the app you’re listening on now. Let’s make 2023 the year you fall in love with your sex life.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: So, we’re still talking fairly young like 10, 12 maybe?

MICHELLE: Yeah. I think when I first started using the family computer, I was probably 10.

LEAH: Yeah. So were you primarily watching straight monogamous stuff? Because I know now you’re bisexual, you’re polyamorous. Was that playing into those things at all when you were a kid?

MICHELLE: Yeah. I think unsurprisingly, it is mostly monogamous or dyadic sex that I was looking up and it was predominantly straight and white. Yeah, I can say that for certain. Although when I started, I do remember when I was young and probably around puberty and masturbating, I would think of scenarios with multiple people. But again, I don’t think I ever thought that was necessarily weirder than anything else.

So, yeah, I don’t think I, at that point, sought out porn. I had maybe group sex or that was maybe more queer or anything at that time. But I was definitely in my imagination like when I was in my room by myself or something, definitely thinking of queer scenarios and group scenarios without thinking of them as such.

LEAH: And what about kink? Were your fantasies and what you were watching fairly “vanilla?” I hate that term, but we don’t have a better one.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Or was there some aspect of kink involved in all of that for you?

MICHELLE: I believe there was. Although it’s interesting with the porn that I did watch, I don’t think I sought anything particularly kinky. I think I would randomly come up against kinky stuff, but I don’t remember a lot of the very graphic sadomasochistic kind of porn. I don’t think I was drawn to that at the time.

And yeah, I can’t quite remember when I became aware of kink formally. But yeah, in my fantasies, I don’t think they were necessarily very kinky, just yeah, I don’t know. I can’t quite remember. I think they’re very relationship-focused or connection-focused, very dialogue-heavy or something.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: Very much about the dynamic and I don’t remember necessarily imagining very many implements or anything, but I think I was just imagining a lot of scenarios, yeah.

LEAH: So, at what point did you take all of this curiosity and energy and bring another person into the experience with you, whether that was a first kiss, a first partner or whatever it was for you?

MICHELLE: Yeah. So, I think first kiss, first time having sex, first partner was all rolled into one. So, I was 18 and I was a freshman in college. Yeah, so it was at the first person that I ever considered a partner because yeah, I didn’t date at all or anything in high school. I was definitely horny in high school, but also I don’t know. It was even more awkward at that time and also didn’t find my peers necessarily compelling.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: Yeah. And so, for better and worse, my first partner was someone who was significantly older than me. But he was also the person who introduced me to the concept formally of non-monogamy. And yeah, so he was the first person that I had sex with and first person I kissed and all of that.

LEAH: When you say significantly older, do you mean you were a freshman and he was a senior?

MICHELLE: Significantly older in that I was 18 and he was 32, yeah.

LEAH: Okay, yes. Fairly significant age difference. And how did that feel for you? Was that a good match for you at the time?

MICHELLE: In retrospect, no. At the time, it was very exciting because yeah, I had no sexual experience, no relationship experience. But now this 32-year-old is talking to me and it’s very exciting. It’s giving me the butterflies in my stomach and all of those exciting naïve beginner feelings. And yeah, at the time, I just thought it was very exciting because he was also this nomadic type. And looking back at it all, it just really makes me just want to smack my forehead against the desk multiple times.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: Yeah, I still go to therapy about it. But yeah, that was my first sexual experience. And for a first time, it wasn’t bad. I remember having this thought that it’s going to hurt because in my teenage years, I was super into a fan of the Opera, read a lot of fanfiction and I read a lot of smut. And so, there’s that idea that the first time always hurts and that there’s blood and stuff.

And yeah, the first time, it did sting a little bit, but it didn’t hurt nearly as much as I thought it would. I wasn’t bleeding or whatever. There was a little bit of spotting. But yeah, for a first time, I was like, wow, it wasn’t as scary as I thought it might be. There are some parts I think, of course, that in my mind I definitely romanticized like it’s this all-consuming euphoric feeling. And while it was pleasurable, it wasn’t that. But yeah, so for a first time, even though I hate that ex now, it wasn’t that bad.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: How long did you stay with him?

MICHELLE: That relationship lasted about 5 years, yeah.

LEAH: Okay. So, for a real long time, especially at that age. And you said that in your fantasies, you were primarily fantasizing about the dynamic, the relationship and connection piece of it. Did you get what you were looking for in that relationship in terms of connection?

MICHELLE: I think for a time, I think I did or it was for a time satisfying certain aspects, but hardly anything that I would say particularly healthy or sustainable. Because yeah, I was for a while as an adolescent, as a teenager, oftentimes instead of necessarily think of my classmates, I would often think of my teachers and authority figures and things like that.

And I think in that time, I eventually learned more about kink and power dynamics and whatnot and figured that I might be into things like pain play or power differentials and things. And so, in this case, I was this prime target in a way for this guy to take advantage of more or less with regard to she is very open to a lot of things. I do like learning and experiencing a lot of things, so open to a lot of things, really took advantage of the interest in older partners angle, and just yeah, having no experience before, and so not having really standards set yet or boundaries.

Because also growing up, I feel like I was raised with this notion almost that boundaries was a bad thing because it’s disrespectful and that any sort of pushback or standing your ground is just disrespectful. So, yeah, I obviously took that into that relationship.

LEAH: Do you think that those messages about boundaries were specific to your family or is that a cultural thing?

MICHELLE: I think it’s difficult to try to think about the cultural aspect because I think it is a bit of both in that I think my family, specifically through my mother had a mix of both of the Chinese or Taiwanese upbringing as well as more of this American sensibility I suppose where there was this sense of this traditionalism, but also this slightly more liberatory feeling as well. It’s just a weird mix of sorts.

So, I think culturally that the boundary thing definitely did exist when my mother grew up because you can see it in my grandmother as well and other family members as well. And it’s not always the same kind of flavor.

But yeah, there aren’t many examples within my family specific of healthy boundaries because to either get around those, you have to just not talk about it like a don’t ask, don’t tell sort of thing. And you’re not able to be particularly open with family. And culturally, I think you can see that a lot in Chinese cultures and stuff like that. But yeah, I also don’t want to talk too broadly.

LEAH: Sure, yeah. I appreciate that. Okay, so you were talking about this first partner. And you said he’s the one who introduced you to non-monogamy. Can you talk about that some? Were you open to it right away? How did he introduce it? What was that process like for you?

MICHELLE: I think part of it as because my parents divorced when I was so young. And so, there was a little bit of priming there that monogamy doesn’t always end well. And also then, just all the TV shows, movies, a lot of media that revolve around monogamy and romantic love and things like that.

And especially those romantic or even romcoms where there’s one person who has to choose between two different people and oftentimes, those two different people are equally good. They have their pros and cons and they’re about equal. And then more often than not, they have to give one of them a real big flaw or something in order to make the twist easier.

LEAH: It’s so frustrating. I’m like why can’t you ever just choose both? Why?

MICHELLE: Exactly.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: So, there was in my head this beginnings of these thoughts of isn’t this a thing that adults can agree on? Isn’t this a thing that they can maybe talk about and share? Is that a thing that exists? And this was, of course, before I had specific vocabulary for that. So, it just was a thing in the back of my mind.

And even as a teenager for all intents and purposes, I was still on the monogamy marriage track because I didn’t know there was any other options. But it was always there nagging me at the back of my mind. And then, this partner who at the time I didn’t know this which red flag that he had another partner, and then eventually as we were talking, he suggests I read the book Sex at Dawn.

LEAH: Wait. So, just a second. So, he had another partner, but you were not aware? So, you thought you were In a monogamous relationship and you were not? Is that correct?

MICHELLE: Yeah. So, we’re in the I guess talking stages, there was this sense of the two of us talking. I think it’s been 10 years now, there were certain things that he was dropping as hints. He wasn’t necessarily completely hiding this person because he gave me his Facebook.

So, on his Facebook, there was a picture of him and another person. And one time, we were sending each other mail and he gave me an address and it said care of and the name of this person. And so, yeah, it was all not good.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: I do not recommend someone does this or if someone does this to you, that’s nothing less than a yellow flag.

LEAH: I would call it bright orange.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: Right. If not a red flag, then bright orange. But yeah, eventually I think before we, I don’t know, “became official,” he recommended I read the book Sex at Dawn. And I was aware of that book. And so, I went to Powell’s Books and picked it up and read it.

And I remember reading it and thinking like, wow, a lot of this makes sense. A lot of this clicks. Okay, these non-monogamy, polyamory things, starting to get vocabulary for it. And yeah, ever since then, I think it all just clicked that the non-monogamy thing was in fact a viable thing. Adults can and do do this and have done this for a long, long time in a bunch of different ways in certain areas, so yeah.

LEAH: I hear you saying that you recognize that it was a valid choice. Did it immediately feel like a valid choice for you?

MICHELLE: Yeah, because, of course, he used that as a segue. And I remember asking him because I think there were enough breadcrumbs dropped that I was asking him, “Did you suggest I read this book because you want to do the non-monogamy thing or that you have another partner?” And yeah, that was indeed the case. And he himself was also brand-new to non-monogamy. He was only three months ahead of where I was at.

LEAH: I feel like it’s not just orange. This is hot, hot orange.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: Yeah. Really by this time, it’s red. As an adult now, I wouldn’t even have gone that far because I would have already seen the terrible signs.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: But yeah, when I read that book, I was like, wow, this really makes sense. And it seems like something I want to do.

LEAH: Yeah. So, at this point, were you aware that you were attracted to more than one gender?

MICHELLE: It feels very silly because I don’t think I in my head called myself a bisexual until maybe 4 or 5 years ago. I’m definitely attracted to more than one gender. And at the time, I just thought that I was aesthetically attracted to women because women are pretty. They’re so beautiful.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: And like I said before, when I was younger, a lot of my sexual fantasies involved group settings in which there were men and women. But yeah, I don’t know why it took me so long to be like, duh, Michelle, you’re bisexual, you dummy.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: It’s actually really common. Not only is it common, I had the exact same experience. Because so much of our media really sexualizes the female form that those of us who are sexually attracted to women think everybody thinks this because we were all sexualized the same way without realizing that some people just look at it and think that’s pretty, not yeah, I want touch that.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: I had crushes on girls all through high school, all through college. And it wasn’t until I was out of college for a couple of years that I actually fell hard for a girl and wanted to be in a relationship with her. Then I was like, wait a minute. Maybe this is a thing. All of those other crushes were just no, that’s not a thing.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: Yeah. It feels so silly. It also makes sense thinking about just everything around us and all the very cis heteronormative mono-normative narratives. But I was also already involved with two partners who are now married and we were all very affectionate with each other at the very least and then also sexual. And even at that time, the word bisexual didn’t even pop up.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: Because it also just felt organic too. And so, I think I feel very fortunate in that my coming out to myself wasn’t particularly dramatic or traumatic because I was like this is just me. Yeah, duh.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: And also fortunately even though my mother has socially more conservative leanings, I always knew growing up that she wouldn’t necessarily wouldn’t care if I was gay. And she probably thought I was gay for a long time. She wouldn’t be particularly comfortable. She wouldn’t handle it super well, but I knew that’s not one of the things she would kick me out for.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: So, I think that also helped me realize like, okay, duh, I’m bisexual and it’s a big deal, but also not a big deal to me.

LEAH: Yeah. I also want to just pause for a second on the word bisexual because there is much conversation in the queer community around bisexual versus pansexual. So, can you talk for a minute about how you understand those words and how you make the choices you do around how you use them?

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: Yeah. I think this is the linguist in me that comes out that I got my little piece of paper for is that words are made up and labels are useful in so much that they’re useful. And especially in talking within queer discourse is that part of the point of queerness is to highlight and/or just normalize or at least destigmatize queerness and to destigmatize difference and to actually embrace difference at least I would think.

And so, bisexuality and pansexuality, there are some people who won’t like this, but they are mostly the same. They overlap much more than they differ. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t meaningful differences. What am I trying to say? I’m trying to not do too many negatives.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: Some differences do matter to some people. I think that is okay. I think when people focus on those differences more than the overlap, that’s when we get into an issue. That’s when we get into you’re actually using these labels within queerness to actually further divide and to further validate heteronormativity in a way. I don’t know, just in a way.

And so, yeah, they overlap much more than they differ. They’re mostly the same. Some people do prefer one term over the other. However, I think trying to go over the minutia of the difference does not matter. I don’t think that is important in general. Again, saying that, the specific labels can be important to different people and I think that can be good. But focusing on those differences just creates more problems where there are just none.

LEAH: I really like how you just parsed that all out and I feel like there are going to be some listeners who are not going to be familiar with what we’re talking about. So, just for a second, I’m going to go through the discourse, which is the conversation that happens in the queer community is if you’re bisexual, then that must mean that you are interested in men and women. You are interested in the binary.

And therefore, that invalidates trans people, non-binary people and anybody else who’s gender fluid, gender queer. And so, therefore, the term bisexual is transphobic and you should be using the word pansexual meaning I am attracted to all genders.

I can only speak for myself and say that when I was coming of age and realized that I was in fact attracted to more than one gender, the only word available to me was bisexual. And I felt so seen. I felt like, oh my God, there’s finally somebody that is me that I clung to that word. And so, I still think of myself as bisexual, even though it probably would be more accurate for me to say that I’m pansexual. I choose to use the word bisexual to mean, yes, there is a binary. I am attracted to two types of people, people who look like me and people who don’t look like me.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: And just like you were saying, there doesn’t need to be this picking apart of the differences. It is a way that we divide ourselves. But thank you for going down that little detour with me.

MICHELLE: God, that could be a podcast episode in and of itself.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Do you struggle with how your body looks during sex? You’re not alone. Growing up as little girls, most of us learned that our worth was entirely tied to how we look. We saw TV shows and movies and fashion magazines that showed a very narrow range of bodies and we were told that those were the perfect desirable bodies. The message, if you don’t look like that, you’re not worthy of love.

But here’s the not so secret secret, they’re lying. There are people who want to love you in the body you’re in today. I promise. They want to see your body. They want to touch your body. They want to worship your body. I promise. But even if a person is already touching you, if you don’t believe you’re worthy of their time, attention, affection, you’ll never let yourself relax enough to enjoy it.

And you deserve to relax. You deserve to let yourself be seen and touched and worshipped. You deserve to experience pleasure without thinking about how much your arms jiggle. You deserve to have sex in any position you want, not just the one where you think you look the thinnest. Would you tell your daughter or sister or best friend that they don’t deserve love because they don’t look like Kim Kardashian? Of course not.

So, let’s do something to help you stop saying that to yourself. I want you to have a deeply fulfilling intimate life and I would be honored to be your coach on the journey to get there. I’m queer, kinky, and non-monogamy friendly and I would love to talk with you.

So, for more information and to schedule your free discovery call, visit www.leahcarey.com/coaching. That’s www.leahcarey.com/coaching for your free discovery call. That link is in the episode description on the app you’re listening on now. Back to the show!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: The guy who you were dating had told you that he was non-monogamous, had offered you the book. You said, “Yeah, let’s do this.” At what point did you opt into non-monogamy not just for him, but for yourself? When did you first get involved in a non-monogamous situation?

MICHELLE: It all feels muddled because it all feels related to one another, these sequence of events. That’s like me reading the book felt like me opting me because by the time I was done with the book, I was like this is definitely the route I want to take. It all makes so much more sense than monogamy, fills a lot of gaps that I had with regard to monogamy.

Even though I was already on the monogamy train, but there were gaps. And so, this helped fill a lot of these gaps. This makes more sense. This is logical. It just seemed so reasonable. God, I’m 18-year-old Michelle, so naïve.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: But also, at the same time, it really was almost a point of return at that point even though I didn’t know that at the time yet. But yeah, after reading that and having conversation with him, he talked about how he had another partner. And then, it just went from there of just like, okay.

Because I remember when he officially said that he had another partner, it didn’t feel that shocking. It didn’t feel like a betrayal yet. At the time, yeah, it did feel like a betrayal. At this time, it would definitely be a red flag. But yeah, at the time, I was like, okay, cool. I don’t think I feel threatened or jealous or anything. And also, it really helps that she was also pretty chill and pretty cool too. And it really just started from there. And gosh, a lot of lessons learned the hard way after that.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: You and I have been joking about colors of flags, but I just realized there are going to be some people who don’t understand why it’s a potential red flag that somebody would get involved with you and then tell you after the involvement had begun that they were non-monogamous. So, can you speak to that?

MICHELLE: Yeah. So, these days, I do have a little bit of empathy for people who don’t outright come out as non-monogamous because there is a lot of stigma and there can be a lot of aggressive pushback. So, I can have a bit of empathy for that.

However, also I think in this case, what’s also important is that there was a bit of trickery happening that wasn’t just protecting himself from harm. It was more of wanting to have his cake and eat it too. And I am a proponent of wanting your cake and having your cake and eating it too.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: But consent is a huge thing. And I think the big problem here is that you can’t have fully informed consent to go into a relationship if you’re not fully informed. You can’t enter a dynamic with full consent if you don’t know that this person will also be spending time with his other person romantically and/or sexually. Yeah, you have a right to know that.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Not to mention several other major power differentials going on, your age. There’s a lot going on in this particular dynamic that throws up flags of various colors, yeah.

MICHELLE: Yeah. At the time too, I remember one of the first things he said to me because I was at a Barnes & Noble, I was minding my own business. I had my backpack on because I had just got out of class and one of the first things he asked me was am I going to high school or am I going to college? Yeah. And so, looking back, I was just like Michelle. Maybe Michelle, run away. But it all happened how it happened and here we are now.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, what was your first non-monogamous experience like for you?

MICHELLE: There was a lot of bad. There was absolutely a lot of bad that still I think the body has kept score, that’s for sure.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: There’s a lot of things that I had to learn about boundaries, that I had to learn about what I had, my rights as an autonomous person.

LEAH: Can you talk a little bit about that? Give us some examples of what that means.

MICHELLE: Yeah. For example, first off, this partner had this conception of a tribe like the kitchen table thing, but maybe even more integrated than that. And so, metamours almost have an imperative to meet metamours. There was definitely this feeling that I would be judged or looked down on if I didn’t want to meet my metamour.

So, that’s a flag because you don’t have to. You don’t have to be involved with your metamours at all as long as you’re respectful and whatever. That’s totally fine. But you do not have to necessarily even get along with your metamours.

To go along with that, just doing things that I didn’t want to do in the group space like being involved in sexual situations that I didn’t fully consent to. But at the same time, at the time, I just also didn’t feel like I had the right to stand up for myself. And so, I was involved in a threesome at the time that I really didn’t want to be involved in and I felt so shitty afterwards. I was crying for an hour.

And yeah, so things like that where I felt like I had to go along with certain things in order to be cool basically, to be the cool girlfriend that’s very chill, very cool, very good with the non-monogamy thing and is so progressive and radical and so beyond my years because I’m cool with this thing.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: But yeah, boundaries are important. Boundaries are not only important, but they are necessary for any healthy relationship and there are times with the whole thing where it’s like if I would’ve known, I could’ve blah, blah, blah, but just say no to certain things. And if he wasn’t okay with that, then goodbye, that dynamic.

Because obviously, what he wants is diametrically opposed to what I want, yeah. So, the main thing I think I’ve learned from my beginnings in non-monogamy are that boundaries are foundational to everything.

LEAH: Yes. And I heard you say earlier that you grew up learning that you maybe weren’t supposed to have boundaries. So, how did you cross that bridge?

MICHELLE: I think part of it was just growing up into adulthood because at the time, I was also doing college and working and things like that. So, surrounding myself with other people outside of family and things like that. So, mingling with people at school, people at work, having to do more of the adult things like paying rent and paying bills and all of that and some of those things, you have to have boundaries around or you have to have a certain discipline around or something, which I think is related to boundaries.

And also, with that relationship, I think I gradually and gradually and gradually just got fed up. So, it got to the point where it’s almost just the protective mechanisms kicking in. Whereas before and still today, I still have a lot of protective mechanisms that are evasion-based where it’s like not good, avoid or go around or ignore. Yeah, there’s got to be a way around there.

But there came to a point where usually, I freeze or flight with the fight or flight. But then, that turned into fight. And so, I think also it’s no coincidence that finally when I got my first full-time job after college, yeah, I finished college, and then I also had cultivated several other relationships that I was finally like, “Yeah, I’m breaking up with you. This is the final straw. We are breaking up.”

So, yeah, I think it was a combination of just becoming fed up with that relationship, learning a lot of lessons the hard way, learning what not to do. And then also just in my life, I was having some better circumstances as a foundation and to support me, then it felt comfortable enough starting the next chapter of that journey.

LEAH: So, what does this chapter of the journey look like? What does your relationship landscape look like right now?

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: It’s still messy because I’m a messy human being. Human beings are messy.

LEAH: We all are.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: Yeah, but I often think back 10 years ago or even 5 years ago and just how different it seems and how different I feel as a person. There are still these very fundamental similarities, these fundamental common threads throughout the timeline. But at the same time, I just know that I will never get into a relationship even nearly as bad as that ever again.

Part of that is because of healthy growth. Part of that is because I think it worsened my avoidance a little bit. And so, we’re having to play this game of two steps forward, one step back, but we’re inching forward. These days, I don’t even know how to quantify them sometimes.

I think over the years, the layer between “partner” or “friend” dissolves over time and I often call myself polyamorous, still a polyamorous with relationship anarchist leanings because I do like the idea of there not being any enforced hierarchy about treating each dynamic as its own thing. And so, bringing to it and taking from each dynamic what is good within that, within the parameters of what seems healthy and sustainable for all parties involved.

My longest-term relationships are about 6, 7 years old. I often find myself having partners who have themselves nesting or anchor partners and that works well for me at this time because as a solo polyamorous person in this time of my life, I really like living alone and just doing a lot of things on my own and being able to enter space with partners whenever it’s convenient for all of us. And yeah, I think in a nutshell, that’s what the relationship space is like for me these days.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: I get so many messages from listeners saying, “Thank you for the show. I’ve listened to the whole back catalog and it’s helped me completely transform my sex life.” Are you one of those people? If so, I’d love to have your support so I can keep growing this show and bringing a new vision of sexuality to the world.

If you haven’t done it yet, please take a moment to rate and review this podcast. I know the podcast industry does not make reviewing a show easy. So, go to www.ratethispodcast.com/goodgirls and it should lead you through the process of posting a review. I’d love to get 100 reviews by the end of the year and I could use your help.

And if you have the financial resources to support the sex positive work I do, I’d be so grateful for your support at Patreon. Donating the equivalent of a fancy cup of coffee each month might not make a big difference to you, but it makes a huge difference to me. There’s no contract or obligation. You can cancel it anytime. And I donate 10% of all proceeds to ARC-Southeast, an organization that supports women in the Southeast United States to access reproductive services that are now illegal or heavily legislated.

It’s easy to become a patron at www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex. And speaking of Patreon, there is a treasure trove of additional audio at Patreon that’s free for everyone to listen to. You don’t even need to have a Patreon account to access it. Just go to www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex to start listening. I appreciate every one of you, whether you’re a client, a contributor, a social media follower or a silent listener. I trust you to know what’s right for you. Thank you for being here. Now, let’s get back to the show!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: How do you keep a calendar?

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: It’s really that stereotype that Google Calendar is life, that even for things not related to partners and whatever, I will forget things if I do not consult my Google Calendar multiple times a day. And I’m also a list keeper, so to-do lists and stuff, it really is crucial to help me function in my day-to-day and week-to-week. But yeah, it’s a colorful tapestry, that Google Calendar.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: And also, what works for me is that even the partner that I see the most often, I see maybe once a week. So, it’s not like I’m seeing multiple partners multiple times a week. There are some partners where I only see them maybe once every other month and that’s what works with our schedules. And that seems to be a thing that works for us long-term so far.

LEAH: So, I am someone who needs that anchor/nesting partner because I want to know who I’m coming home to. That stability is really important to me and I want to spend a lot of time with him. And then, other people can come and go from that, but he’s the center.

There are some people for whom that stability or increase in time is less important. And so, what I think I want to get to is it sounds like this setup is fulfilling to you, not like you’re sitting there and wishing, gosh, I wish I could spend five times a week with this person, but that’s just not going to work. It sounds like for you, this is the fulfilling situation.

MICHELLE: It is definitely in my timeline the most fulfilling structure and set of circumstances that I’ve experienced so far. And it’s not perfect. It’s definitely far from perfect because there’s like with my first partner, I lived with him for 2-3 years and there are some aspects of that that I do miss, absolutely, like having very easy access to they’re in the next room, so I can get a hug from them or some very face-to-face affirmation or whatever or I wake up and he has left a little chai next to my bed.

There are certain things that come with a nesting partner that I no longer experience. That doesn’t mean I can’t get other certain needs met. I just have to find different ways. And it can be difficult because I’m a person who likes a lot of my alone time, time away, but I can go too far in that direction sometimes. And when I lose sight, when I lose track and I can be like, wow, I am now lonely because I didn’t do my due diligence in reaching out and scheduling enough time or whatever.

And so, yeah, there are times where there are dips because I’m like, gosh, I didn’t properly maintain this machine. But at the same time, again it is the most fulfilling set of circumstances and structures that I’ve had so far. And who knows what I will want even a year from now, much less 5, 10? Who knows what’s later? That’s a future Michelle problem.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yeah. In terms of gender, what is the makeup of your various partners? Are they predominantly one gender or another?

MICHELLE: I would say at least these days, most of the people that I interact with in dating or whatever are still men and it’s something I think about a lot because I think it’s still the thing I have the blueprint for the best. That’s the one that I can navigate the easiest.

I am saying that especially cis men are easy in a way to get certain things done. And I’m not in a Machiavellian way, it’s like I am a proponent of it being very mutually fun, pleasurable and stuff. But I guess I feel less intimidated in a way because I have more of that map. I have more of that blueprint. I know the beats and I can go free form with them. I can jazz it up a little bit and be most comfortable with that. So, yeah, I have partners of variety of genders, but I will say that cismen are still the highest quantity within that.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: And now, it’s time for the lowdown, the things we’re dying to know, but would usually be too polite to ask any good girl.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Do you have sex during your period?

MICHELLE: Fortunately, these days because I have the arm implant birth control, I don’t get periods anymore. But I have had sex during my period and it’s more a matter of their comfort rather than my comfort with regards to that.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: What’s the approximate number of sex partners you’ve had?

MICHELLE: God, I’d have to consult this Excel sheet, but it’s about 70.

LEAH: What’s your favorite sex toy?

MICHELLE: Favorite sex toy, I can be partial to a variety of clit suction toys. Right now, I’m using a wand from Unbound.

LEAH: What’s your favorite sex position?

MICHELLE: A lot of people think this is surprising as surprising as me saying that vanilla is my favorite ice cream flavor.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: But I really like missionary, especially with a hefty pillow under the butt. Missionary’s real good, yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Do you prefer to initiate or for your partner to initiate in the bedroom?

MICHELLE: Historically, I have preferred partners initiating, but I am slowly but surely working on empowering myself to initiate more and really finding joy out of that.

LEAH: All right. Are you generally more active or more passive during lovemaking?

MICHELLE: I would say I take on more of a passive role. I can definitely be a really good pillow princess, yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Do you prefer clit stimulation or penetration?

MICHELLE: When I’m masturbating, I think I prefer clit stimulation and even then pretty broad. But during partnered sex, I would say I prefer penetration much more.

LEAH: Do you enjoy G-spot stimulation?

MICHELLE: I think I have enjoyed G-spot stimulation, but something I’ve learned in the last year is A-spot stimulation. I really like cervical and around the cervix stimulation. That drives me crazy.

LEAH: All right. Do you enjoy having your breasts played with?

MICHELLE: I think for me, it’s fine. It doesn’t bother me or anything. But it’s not like an especially important erogenous zone for me.

LEAH: Do you think it’s generally easy or challenging for you to orgasm?

MICHELLE: During partnered sex, notoriously very difficult.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Is that different when you’re masturbating?

MICHELLE: Yeah. When I’m masturbating, I can do that, which is part of why I don’t prioritize it as much during partnered sex because there are a whole lot of other things that I can get through partnered sex that I can’t do by myself, but I can make myself cum.

LEAH: Yeah. Have you ever faked an orgasm?

MICHELLE: I have, but I’m proud to say it’s been more than 5 years since I’ve done that.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Do you prefer the orgasm from masturbating or from sex with another person?

MICHELLE: That’s an interesting one. I, of course, love making myself orgasm and there are times where I wish I could orgasm with partners in so much that it would create more connection, not just for the sake of the orgasm.

LEAH: What’s your favorite thing to do to a partner during sexual play?

MICHELLE: I like using my mouth a lot. So, a lot of kissing and licking and I love going down on a partner.

LEAH: What kind of touch do you enjoy receiving most?

MICHELLE: I love just skin on skin, so just a lot of a palm of someone’s hand against all parts of my body. And yeah, just almost this being consumed feeling just through the flesh on flesh.

LEAH: What are your hard red lines, the absolute nos?

MICHELLE: Absolute nos. I would say they’d have to do with my comfort level at the time because there are times where I won’t want rougher type of play because I just can’t get into that mindset. And then, there are other times where I’m okay with that. Yeah, I can’t say something more specific than that right now.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, the easy question to ask is piss, poop, and blood.

MICHELLE: Right. So, that’s part of the thing where it’s like I have done piss play and I feel like every subsequent kink where I’ve thought I wouldn’t be into it like piss play, I’ve done it and it’s not something I’ll seek out. But if a partner likes that, I can also enjoy it.

And so, I feel like again poop play, I don’t think I would prefer it, but it’s also not a hard limit for me. And blood play is something that I am interested in going into, but I have no interest in rushing into that because it can be so dangerous.

LEAH: All right. What’s your ideal frequency of sex?

MICHELLE: Ideal frequency of sex would probably be every day, maybe weekends off, but at least every other day.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Do you have hair down there or are you bare?

MICHELLE: I do have hair down there, yeah.

LEAH: Have you ever had a threesome or more?

MICHELLE: Yes.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: You’ve already said that you enjoy giving oral. If you’re with somebody with a penis, do you swallow or not?

MICHELLE: I do swallow, yes. I love it.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Do you enjoy receiving oral sex?

MICHELLE: I definitely have a much harder time receiving oral sex. It is much easier for me if it’s more like fingering or using a toy.

LEAH: Do you ever worry about your smell or taste?

MICHELLE: I do sometimes, but I think less and less over the years.

LEAH: So, if it’s not the smell and taste thing, do you know what it is that makes oral more challenging for you?

MICHELLE: I get into my head very easily during partnered sex. And when someone’s all the way down there and my head is left alone up here in a way, it can be much more difficult for me to focus. And then, I start worrying because I know it’s very difficult really to make me cum during partnered sex. So then, I worry, am I taking too long? Is this is a burden? All of these nervous thoughts that I feel like eventually over time, I’ll slowly work on getting over that, so I can enjoy oral sex a bit more.

LEAH: So relatable.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: How do you feel about ass play?

MICHELLE: To me, I’ve done it enough times to know that it doesn’t stimulate me positively a whole lot. I will engage in it sometimes. If the other person is really into it and I’m in that I think more carnal type of space, it can still be really fun.

But yeah, receiving it, I’m pretty meh. Giving it, I think it was only 2 or 3 years ago where I ate someone’s ass for the first time. I was like this is not as bad as thought it would be. This will go into the repertoire.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Okay. What do you consider the “kinkiest” thing you enjoy with the understanding that everyone’s scale of kink is completely different?

MICHELLE: Probably consensual non-consent.

LEAH: Can you talk a little bit about what that means? Because not everyone will know that term.

MICHELLE: Right. So, it is like kink or sexual play, it’s what it sounds like simulating nonconsensual sex, but within the context of consent. So, you establish safe words and boundaries and you really discuss it beforehand. And you really have a partner that you can trust and risk-aware, consensual, all of that good stuff with regard to kink and BDSM.

LEAH: There are probably a lot of people listening who think of this using a term that we would no longer use in the community. But so that you can recognize what we’re talking about, some of you probably think of this as rape play or assault play. And so, again we don’t use that word anymore because it’s really not accurate. But I think it’s really important for people to hear that this kind of play is okay. It’s normal and it can in fact be really great for some people.

MICHELLE: Yeah. And like with all kinks, even the “more minor” ones, find resources, education on it, do your homework, really prioritize around safety and whatnot. And of course, it very well might not be for you. And yeah, just really prioritize your safety around it.

LEAH: And there’s nothing wrong with you if it’s something that you’re interested in. Do you enjoy dirty talk during sexual encounters?

MICHELLE: I do, yeah. I joke with a partner that I’m really good at “Yes, and.” So, going back to the initiation thing, I’m not as good initiating certain things, but I’m really good at “Yes, and” and dirty talk.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Love it. Have you ever felt a sexual urge that confused you?

MICHELLE: Yeah, totally. I don’t think I can think of that at the moment, but absolutely, I have.

LEAH: What’s your favorite part of your body?

MICHELLE: Favorite part of my body would probably be I think my mouth, yeah.

LEAH: What’s your least favorite part of your body?

MICHELLE: Least favorite part, it’s one of those things that depends on the day. On more neutral days, my feet because I think feet are weird in general.

[LAUGHTER]

MICHELLE: And then also, just as a body image thing, I can definitely get self-conscious about my belly, yeah. And then again, it depends on the day.

LEAH: Yeah. What’s something about your current sex life that isn’t quite as satisfying as you’d like it to be?

MICHELLE: Maybe frequency. And I think it’s still definitely a work in progress of this whole really quality over quantity thing because of all the sexual partners that I’ve had, how many of them would I say were really good sex? What does that number matter if a good portion of those were just meh or bad? So, yeah, just really working on the quality over quantity thing.

LEAH: And finally, what belief did you have about sex as a child or teenager that you wish you could go back and correct her on now?

MICHELLE: I think I would try to tell 5-year-old Michelle or whatever, however I can say that to 5-year-old Michelle to get this across that yes, sex is seen as shameful in society. And there are ways that you have to navigate around that, even if you don’t feel that much shame yourself. And that’s okay that you don’t feel that much shame yourself and that the shame that you do feel is just not knowing that you can’t be open about it to your parents or whatever. But yeah, there’s really nothing to be ashamed about. And be safe, have good boundaries, and have fun.

LEAH: I think that’s an excellent note to end on.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Michelle, I’m so glad to have had this conversation with you. I know that you do talk about all of these topics online. So, where can people find you if they want to connect with you?

MICHELLE: Yeah. So, it’s pretty easy. I basically live on Instagram @polyamorouswhileasian. And then, whenever I do write longer-form posts, I will also post them on my website, www.polyamorouswhileasian.com.

LEAH: Excellent. I will put links in the show notes. Michelle, it has been such a pleasure. Thank you.

MICHELLE: Yeah. Thank you again for having me on.

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LEAH: That’s it for today. Before we go, I want to remind you that the things you may have heard about your sexuality aren’t true. You are worthy. You are desirable. You are not broken. As a sex and intimacy coach, I will guide you in embracing the sexuality that is innately yours, no matter what it looks like.

To set up your free discovery call, go to www.leahcarey.com/coaching. If you have questions or comments about anything you’ve heard on the show, call and leave a message at 720-GOOD-SEX. Full show notes and transcripts for this episode are at www.goodgirlstalk.com. And you can follow me @goodgirlstalk on the socials for more sex positive content.

If you’re enjoying this show, please take a moment to leave a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or if you’re using another podcast app, go to www.ratethispodcast.com/goodgirls. While listening to this show, producing is not. If my work is meaningful to you and you have a few dollars to support it each month, I’ll gratefully accept your patronage at Patreon. Find out more and become a community member at www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex.

Good Girls Talk About Sex is produced by me, Leah Carey, and edited by Gretchen Kilby. I have additional administrative support from Lara O’Connor. Transcripts are produced by Jan Acielo. Until next time, here’s to your better sex life!

[MUSIC]

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Music – Nazar Rybak

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