Some sex workers enjoy their work – Jocelyn

LEAH: Welcome to Good Girls Talk about Sex. I’m sex educator and sexual communication coach, Leah Carey and this is a place to share conversations with all sorts of women about their experience of sexuality. These are unfiltered conversations between adult women talking about sex. If anything about the previous sentence offends you, turn back now! And, if you’re looking for a trigger warning, you’re not going to get it from me. I believe that you are stronger than the trauma you have experienced. I have faith in your ability to deal with things that upset you. Sound good? Let’s start the show!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Hey friends. In the episode two weeks ago, we visited with Lynn, a woman who has found sexual healing through visiting a sex worker. This week, we speak with a full service sex worker who has been on the other side of that interaction. And for the record, this is not the same sex worker that Lynn has worked with.

Jocelyn began her time as a sex worker when she was in a difficult financial situation. Over the years, she has done some escorting, some dominatrix work, work in a massage parlor, and now, is a sexual surrogate specializing in people with disabilities. I don’t want to tell you a lot more than that because I want you to hear it all from her.

There is one important note about sex work in the legal systems in the United States and Canada. This was recorded in 2019 and is being released in 2020. The laws in the United States around sex work vary depending on jurisdiction but it is illegal in most parts of the U.S.

At the time that this is being released, there are numerous moves to decriminalize sex work around the country while at the same time, there are laws put in place the last couple of years that tare reportedly meant to minimize sex trafficking but do little to end that scourge while also making life significantly more difficult and dangerous for consensual sex workers.

And all of that is to preface the fact that Jocelyn lives and works in British Columbia, Canada, where the laws around sex work are different. And she mentions in the second half of this interview, Canada now operates under the Nordic model, which makes the selling of sexual services legal but the purchasing of sexual services illegal. You might hear that description and think that it’s a reasonable compromise, criminalize the Johns, but don’t punish the sex workers.

It’s actually far more complicated than that because yoyo cannot criminalize one half of a transaction without significantly impacting the other half of the transaction. I’ll put links on the articles on the Show Notes on both the United States and Canadian systems for those of you who would like to dive a little deeper into this fascinating and infuriating rabbit hole. And, if you live in a country outside of North America, and want to dive into the rules in your own part of the world, I would love to hear what you learn.

Okay, so now let’s get into the interview. Jocelyn is a 37 year old, cisgender female who describes herself as white, pansexual, polyamorous, single and dating, and Canadian. She grew up in a Protestant Christian home and she describes her body as athletic with curves. I am so pleased to introduce Jocelyn!

Oh my gosh. I’m so excited to talk to you Jocelyn! So we met last weekend. We’re recording this in December. We met last weekend at a class and we just had an immediate sisterhood and I’m so excited to talk to you today.

JOCELYN: Yay, me too.

LEAH: Yeah, thanks for being here. So I have a feeling that this conversation is going to dip into a lot of different areas and is probably going to run a lot longer than most so let’s dive right in.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: Let’s do it.

LEAH: All right. So let’s start where we start all of my conversations. What is your first memory of sexual pleasure?

JOCELYN: Ooh. The first thing that comes to mind I think is my first kiss. It was when I was in day care because I was raised by a single mother and so we used to have to go to afterschool day care. And there was a boy there named Cory and he was super cute and we were just so in love and we used to come up with excuses. They had back in those days, there was only one computer that we had to get permission to go play video games on or whatever and it was in the office. And so we would go and play video games on the computer, but really we were just making out.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: How old were you?

JOCELYN: Oh my gosh. I’ve been trying to remember. I don’t really know how old I would have been, like Grade 6 maybe? And yeah, we were definitely kissing in the Grade 6, I don’t know how we learned how to do that.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: And we were just enamored with each other and we actually made up a code word. Instead of saying I love you, we would say I penguin you so that none of the teachers would know what we were saying so we wouldn’t get in trouble and stuff.

And then I remember one time, we just couldn’t help it and we were in the hallway and we were going to kiss and a teacher came out or like a supervisor person came out. And so we kind of like, we’re really close and we’re about to kiss, and we both pulled away really quickly and then the teacher was like, “What the heck?” And then that was the end of that and we were not allowed to go to the computer room alone anymore after that.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Oh, wow. And so how far did your making out go at that point? Was it just kissing? Was there touching?

JOCELYN: No, it was just kissing as far as I remember.

LEAH: And did that bring up all those pleasurable hormones that you would associate now?

JOCELYN: Yeah, I think so. As far as I remember. There wasn’t a lot of tongue I don’t think like it was just a lot of open mouthed kissing from what I remember.

LEAH: What were you hearing in your childhood home? You said you were raised by a single mom. What were you hearing about sex or sexuality or even kissing at home?

JOCELYN: Nothing. There was no talk about bodies or intimacy or sexuality. I never got a sex talk. I was not close to my mom growing up either. I was a pretty ragey kid.

So I remember when I finally got my period, I didn’t tell my mom. I kept it from her. And when she found that out, I remember we were having an argument about something and I knew it was going to hurt her that I kept it from her so I threw it in her face. And it did, it hurt her very much because she wanted to take me out to dinner and do this whole welcome to womanhood. Looking back as a parent now and as an adult, I’m like I was such a little asshole.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: That was so sweet of my mom to want to do that and she was crushed that she missed it and she didn’t get to do her little womanhood inauguration with me. So there was no talk about kissing or sexuality or anything like that. And my mom didn’t date at all either while she was raising us so we didn’t see a lot of PDA or anything like that.

My grandparents used to hold hands a lot. I remember when they were driving in the car, they would hold hands and I always thought that was really sweet but that was the extent of it. I never saw any of my aunts or uncles doing hugs and kisses. None of that. There was none of that.

LEAH: I was going to ask you about whether your mom dated and I wonder now as a single mom, how do you feel about the fact that you didn’t see her dating. How do you feel as a mom yourself now?

JOCELYN: I think I respect her choice because she put the there of us first and my brothers had a really difficult time going through the divorce for many years after that so they were in a very sensitive place. And I think if she were introducing other men into our lives, it would have been ten times harder. And so I respect the choice that she made.

I don’t know how she went 18 years without wanting to be with a man. I mean I think that’s like martyr territory. And so I kind of feel sorry for her in a way because I feel like she denied herself for a really long time and then after we all moved out and she finally started dating, we kind of like had to give her that nudge like, “Hey, mom. It’s okay now. Live your life. Do your thing. Find your partner.”

So yeah, I think I respect her choice for sure because she was a 100% focused on us kids and we needed the support because we weren’t getting it from our father by any means.

LEAH: Did you have a relationship with your dad?

JOCELYN: Yes but it was very unhealthy and toxic. He was abusive.

LEAH: When you say abuse, do you mean emotional, physical, sexual?

JOCELYN: All of the above.

LEAH: So did you experience sexual abuse?

JOCELYN: I did, yup. My brothers didn’t. They only ever experienced emotional and physical abuse. I say only but it’s not any better. And I got the brunt of the emotional and sexual abuse, yeah.

LEAH: I’m so sorry.

JOCELYN: Yeah.

LEAH: How long did it go on for?

JOCELYN: I don’t know how to answer that honestly because it happened in my sleep and it didn’t start happening until after my parents split up.

LEAH: Have you ever had a conversation with him about the abuse?

JOCELYN: Yes, I confronted him on my early 20s about it in a public place. And it went very badly.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: And he called me a liar. He said my mom put these ideas in my head. And then he basically said all of my life choices are my own and called me names and it was very terrible. It was horrible.

LEAH: My conversation with my dad went almost exactly the same way.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: He’s like “I’m not a pedophile” and I’m like, “No one’s calling you a pedophile. That’s not what this conversation is.”

LEAH: So you mentioned that you came from a really religious community so how did religion impact your view of sex and sexuality?

JOCELYN: Well l was taught that we weren’t supposed to have sex until we were married. Of course like many of us were. I didn’t try masturbating until I was probably maybe grade 7 or 8 so that kind of like self-pleasuring needed to happen in secret. I never shared that. We didn’t talk about it so there was definitely a shame around pleasure I feel like. Or sex and bodies in general. That was just sort of unspoken.

LEAH: Did you feel guilty when you were kissing boys?

JOCELYN: No. I didn’t.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: Ironically, no.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: I did not. Although I got to say, I didn’t really struggle with guilt at all until I became a mother.

LEAH: Were you getting any kind of Sex Ed in school? Where were you learning about sex, if anywhere?

JOCELYN: Nowhere. Movies. I remember, I was in French immersion so we had like this French dictionary in our class and it was huge, huge like an encyclopedia. And in the middle of it, there were some color photographs and one of them had a naked man and a naked woman with all of their body parts listed. And we loved looking at that little book. We would always sneak that encyclopedia and open it and be like, “Ooh. The naked man and the named woman.” Because it was so taboo. It was so taboo. There was no Sex Ed. I remember in my health class in Grade 7, the equivalent of the Sex Ed we got was talking about how to shave our legs properly.

LEAH: What?

JOCELYN: Yeah. I do not remember about any but we talked about menstruation and periods and hygiene around that but in terms of actual sexuality, I don’t remember anything. If they did teach it to us, I don’t remember it. So it’s either they glossed over it really quickly or I blocked it out. I don’t know.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So you were getting your information from movies and TV?

JOCELYN: Yeah, pretty much or like other friends, right?

LEAH: Which are always a really good source of information.

JOCELYN: Oh, yes, super accurate.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: Not so much.

LEAH: Yeah. So when did you start dating?

JOCELYN: My first serious boyfriend I think was in Grade 10, Ryan, what a babe. Such a babe.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: And we fooled around a little bit. There was more making out and groping and stuff in that relationship. And then I broke up with him because I just felt that I wasn’t really in it and I feel like it wasn’t fair to him.

LEAH: Were you experiencing pleasure during that making out and groping? When you say you weren’t in it, do you mean you weren’t enjoying the relationship, you weren’t enjoying the physical interaction?

JOCELYN: I think I felt like yeah, I was dating him for the sake of having a boyfriend. I mean, did I experience pleasure? Sure, but I feel like during those times I was so self-conscious. I was more concerned with if I looked skinny and if I looked good and if I was doing things right and it felt good for him. I was way too in my head to have really been present enough to be experiencing the pleasure. Like sure, was it fun to kiss him? Yeah. Did I like that? Sure. But I don’t remember feeling any massive waves of erotic pleasure at all.

LEAH: That is a perfect description. I talk a lot about performing pleasure and what you just said is a perfect description of that. When we’re so focused on how we look and how we sound and are we doing it right, there’s no space left for us to really feel what’s going on in our bodies. We’re just doing it for the sake of the other person and worrying about whether we’re doing it right or not.

JOCELYN: Totally, totally.

LEAH: So when did you decide that you were ready to have sex?

Before we go any further, I want to break in quickly and let you know that there’s a lot more to the answer to this question. You’re about to hear from Jos about her first consensual sexual experience but before that, she had a nonconsensual experience where she said yes to oral sex but did not consent to penetrative sex.

If you’ve been listening for a while, you know I don’t do trigger warnings because I believe you are stronger than the trauma you have experienced. However, I also believe there’s a line between what’s appropriate to share in a general public space and what needs to be opted into with prior consent.

Jos’s stories that night includes blood in a way that I think you should be prepared for. Therefore, I’m making this audio available at Patreon. Not because you need to pay for it, but because I want you to knowingly opt in to hearing about it. Jos shares how she initially gave consent, how it rapidly turned nonconsensual, the processing she has done in the intervening years, and the feeling she now has to the man who violated her consent.

Also at Patreon, Jocelyn and I talk about whether the reported statistics of childhood abusive boys are far too low, how she separates her personal sexuality from her work sexuality, how she talks with her son about sex and as usual, the extended lowdown Q and A.

Audio extras are free for all at Patreon.com regardless of whether you’re a financial contributor. If you have a few dollars to pledge in support of my work each month, I will gratefully accept. But if you don’t, I completely understand and honor you for taking care of yourself. Remember, you can access the audio extras at Patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex.

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So all of that information and audio Is at patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex. And please remember, if your finances are tight, I get it. If you still want to support the show, please tell a friend to listen. You could even organize an online listening part with some of your besties. Use this show as a jumping off point to deepen your own conversations about intimacy and sex. Okay, now let’s get back to Jos telling us the story of her first consensual sexual experience.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Let’s talk about your first, hopefully, consensual experience.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: Yes, very consensual. His name was Mason and we decided very much together to take that leap. And so in a way I was sort of grateful for the fact that my “cherry had been popped” if I’m doing the quotation marks correctly right now.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: Because it made the first time with my boyfriend who I actually loved and who loved me, a lot easier. It was still uncomfortable but it was definitely a lot easier and less messy because I’d gone through that experience previously.

So I was 17 when I consciously and consensually decided to start having sex with my long-term boyfriend and it was lovely. It was great. He was very emotionally in tune with me and he never pressured me to do anything I didn’t want to do and so that opened the whole world of sexuality up for me to experiment.

I do feel like I got a more well-rounded sexual experience because I was with one person that I trusted and so we got to try a lot of different things together really safely and I feel like I got more sexual experience than if I had just been having sex with a bunch of different people.

LEAH: When you say you got to try a lot of things, what does that include? What kinds of stuff?

JOCELYN: We tried different positions or different places to have sex. Different toys, different ways of touching each other, different ways of rubbing each other up ,and different foreplay. We got pretty creative with those things for being pretty newbies with sexuality.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: So yeah, I feel like it was a good experience. I’m happy with the way that all of that happened for sure.

Oh, you would ask me about an abortion as well, so let’s touch on that. I got pregnant with him and I was 17 when I got pregnant and I didn’t realize that that’s what was happening either. So I was pregnant for three, almost four months before I realized that I was pregnant and that was what was going on with me.

And so luckily I turned 18 during that time, so I was able to sign myself, give myself permission to have an abortion because otherwise, I would have needed parental consent which would not have gotten well at all. So it was perfect that I ended up being able to do that for myself. I don’t regret it at all. It was the right decision for me to make at the time. I was not ready to have a child and especially not with that person and my life would be completely, completely different than what it is now if I would have walked down that path. I never felt remorse. I never felt guilt about it because I knew it was the right decision for me at the time so it wasn’t an easy thing to go through but it was an easy decision for me to make.

And then I ended up having an affair and so that was the first time I ever cheated on a partner. And there was a beautiful, beautiful man who ended up coming to work for me and he was one of the most beautiful men that I have ever seen to this day.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: And I’m not going to use his name because I’m going to get some kind of personal here. But I ended up having an affair with him and he had a very small penis and I remember when I discovered that, I felt so ripped off.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: I felt cheated because this beautiful man had this little tiny penis like how is this fair? And then I also quickly realized that he had only had one night stands because he was so self conscious about the size of his penis as well. And so he was very inexperienced with how to pleasure me. And also he was very unexpressive while we were having sex which was very difficult for me because I wasn’t used to that.

So I said to him at one point, “You have this deadpan expression on your face when we’re having sex and it’s hard for me to read what’s going on for you. Are you liking this? Are you not liking this? Is it working for you? I don’t even know when you’ll finish. You’re so deadpan nonchalant. It’s weird for me.”

And he didn’t really know how to react to that when I said it to him but I was like, “I need you to give me more. I don’t really know how this is going to work otherwise.” And that’s when he kind of shared with me that I was the first woman he’d been with consecutively for X amount of time, I can’t remember how many months that we were together but he had never had a relationship like that before because he had only ever done the one night stand thing. And I was like, “Oh. Okay. This is making a lot more sense now.”

LEAH: We rarely in this culture have conversations about men with small penises. Sex is a taboo subject and there’s a whole bunch of things that are specifics hat are even more taboo and that’s like the ultimate taboo. So, let’s talk about it. This is not necessarily unusual nor is it anything to be ashamed of because it’s your body in the same way that some women have small breasts and some woman have large breasts. So what was your experience with him? Did he learn how to use his penis? Did he learn how to use other parts of his body like his fingers and his tongue to pleasure you?

JOCELYN: Yes, definitely. Because I had brought that conversation up, I made him talk about it with me. Things got better for sure. He definitely improved and I felt very satisfied with him because well also, I really liked him a lot so I think it’s a lot easier to derive pleasure form a partner when you really enjoy them as a person too. So yeah, he definitely improved. His skills improved. But I will say, I thought I was having orgasms, but I was not because I did not have a true orgasm until I moved to BC, British Columbia for those of you who are not familiar with our provincial short terms. And yeah, I will never forget the day that I had my first true orgasm.

LEAH: All right. Let’s do it.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: Okay. Yeah, I remember exactly what the walls looked like and where I was and like everything because oh my God, it was amazing. I was with a long term partner rat the time as well he’s my boyfriend and he was a horn dog. He had never been sexual with a woman before me and so, we were like little rabbits for sure.

LEAH: How old were you at this point?

JOCELYN: Early twenties. And we had a lot of sex, a lot, a lot of sex. And we were in my room and he was laying down and I was on top of him. Now I know he hit my G-spot but at the time I didn’t know that’s what was going on. And so, all of a sudden, he hit this spot and I was like, “Oh my God. Don’t move. Stay exactly there.”

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: And he was like, “Okay. Okay.” And he was good at following directions and he just kept going in that position. It just took me over the edge and I had the most intense G-spot orgasm and I was squirting everywhere and I couldn’t stop laughing afterwards. I was laughing for like five minutes straight. I just could not stop laughing. And I was like, “Oh my God. This was amazing. This was amazing.” And I had that permanent smile on my face for like three days afterwards like the cliché that you see in the movies.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: And I was like, “Oh my God. This is a real thing!”

[MUSIC]

LEAH: I want to invite you to imagine for a moment what your ideal sex life looks and feels like.

Who are you with?
What type of sex do you have together?
How do you feel while touching them?
How does your body feel when they touch you?
Or … would you like to have LESS sex than you’re currently having?

If you don’t know, or if that vision of your ideal doesn’t look at all like what’s currently going on in your bedroom, I can help.

With personalized sex and intimacy coaching, we’ll explore where you are, where you want to be, and the steps to help you get there.  There are no right or wrong answers, just the answers that work FOR YOU.

I understand that exploring your sexuality and all that goes with it – your body image, your belief in your lovability, and more – can be terrifying.  Believe me, I sat in the middle of that fire for decades. I know how painful it is.  But I also stepped out the other side, stronger, more confident, and more certain of my own lovability and desirability. You can do the same.

I work with couples and one-on-one – whether you’ve never explored your sexual desires before, or you want to explore things you’ve never done before like BDSM or non-monogamy, or if you and your partner need some help figuring out how to communicate together about sex.

I am queer, kinky, and poly friendly.

I want you to have a deeply fulfilling intimate life, and together we can help you get there.

For more information and to schedule your free Discovery Call, visit www.leahcarey.com/coaching. A new client recently said that before her Discovery Call she was extremely nervous, but that I made the experience feel easy and comfortable.

Book your free Discovery Call today at www.leahcarey.com/coaching.

[MUSIC]

JOCELYN: I got approached all the time and at one point, it started becoming a running joke like “Do I have threesome written on my forehead or what?”

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: Because people would just come up to me and they were always friends of mine but they were like, “I don’t think I can ask anybody else but you this. Would you like do this with me and my partner?” And I was like, “Sure. Why not?”

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: Fast forward to BC time and I’m like dating this couple and the wife was bisexual, the husband I knew through work. And so he had approached me again about being the third in their threesome scenario. And I connected with the husband on a person level. He was kind of a hippie dude and we had a lot of like spirituality things in common but I didn’t really find him that attractive.

And so I was kind of like, “I don’t know about this.” And he was like, “Let’s take you out to dinner and see how you feel about it.” And then we had a great dinner and his wife was smoking hot and she was this European masseuse and total cliché, but real life person. So then they were like, “Hey. Can we invite you over back to our place for a massage? No pressure. Nothing’s going to happen. We just want to give you a nice massage.” And I was like, “Fuck yeah. I’ll do that.”

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: So I came over to their place and still to this day, it’s one of the most erotic memories of my life. The two of them massaging me together, having two sets of hands on me and not knowing whose hands were whose and they were giving me a proper massage too. They weren’t just trying to grope me or anything. They weren’t doing anything inappropriate and it got me so revved up, I was like, “Let’s go. Let’s do this. Flip me over.”

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: And they were like, “Okay! You’re the boss!” And so from then on out, we had this sort of triad going on but they wanted to date me in public and I was not ready for that at the time. I was super self conscious about being seen in public with them as a triad. I remember they wanted to take me on trips and stuff.

LEAH: Wow, that’s pretty progressive.

JOCELYN: Yeah. And I was like, “I can’t. I’m way too concerned about who might see me and then the husband started getting kind of weird with me and I just backed out. I thought, I’m here for your wife, I would not be here if it wasn’t for your wife being bisexual. So I felt like my primary relationship should have been with her and when it started to feel like I didn’t have as much of a connection with her and he was sending me dick picks and being all too much, I was like, “Okay. I need to cut this off.” So I shut that down.

LEAH: So, let’s talk sex work!

JOCELYN: Okay. Great! I love to talk about sex work.

LEAH: How did you get into it?

JOCELYN: So I was in a financial crisis. I was behind on bills and rent and all sorts of thing and I was really, really struggling financially.

LEAH: And how old were you at this point?

JOCELYN: Let me think. My son was a year and a half-ish, almost two, so I would have been 29. I think, 29 or 30. And I didn’t know what else to do.

Now, let me preface this really quickly because I didn’t realize at the time that I had actually dipped my toe into lighter levels of sex work before that. I let one of my exes continue to have sex with me to pay for trips that I wanted to go on or I was having an affair with this married man, not my proudest moment and I don’t do that anymore for all of you who are horrified right now.

But I was in this unfortunate relationship with a married man and I was involved in a network marketing company and he was in the upper echelons of this company. And so I knew he had money, he had a family though too. And I remember he wanted to come over and I didn’t really want to see him but I thought, “Well. I’ll let him come over and I’ll have sex with him and then I’ll ask him for money.”

And I did that. And I had sex with him even though I didn’t really want to, and then I was like, “You know, I’m really having a hard time. I could really use some help.” And he was like, “Oh, I wish I could help you, but like I can’t.” And I was pissed. I was so mad and I thought to myself, “You know, if I’m willing to do that, what is the difference between what I just did and sex work? Nothing.”

So that flipped a switch with me and so I decided, “Okay. I’m going to do this because I don’t know what else to do.” So I went on Craigslist and I found an ad for a massage parlor that was downtown Vancouver but does not exist anymore, and I went in for an interview and I started working there right away. I made a butt load of money and I paid off all my debts within a week or something like really quickly and then I was hooked and that was that.

LEAH: And what was the emotional transition for you like going into sex work? Were there any hang-ups for you about like this is bad, this is wrong?

JOCELYN: Totally, big time. Especially because of my religious conservative upbringing. I had a lot of internal conflict about it and I remember just looking down at my kid on the bus and he was just this cute little toddler and I remember just feeling all this guilt and shame around what I was doing and looking at his sweet little face and I started withdraw. I got a really, really strong network of friends that I consider family. I was withdrawing from all of them. I stopped answering phone calls.

I stopped seeing my friends because I was so ashamed and I didn’t want to lie. That’s the other thing. I hated lying about it. It was so, so stressful and it’s still to this day one of the things I hate the most about the industry and I do understand why it’s necessary. It’s unfortunately a necessary evil for a lot of sex workers to have to lie about what they do because of the shame and the stigma that surrounds it and they don’t want to jeopardize their kids or their job or their family or anything like that.

And so the lying is a necessary evil but I really wish it wasn’t that way. So I started getting really depressed and really secluded and then I remember one day, a girlfriend of mine, she came over and she walked through the door and I had like verbal diarrhea. It just came out of me. She was like, “Oh my gosh, I haven’t seen you in so long.” And I was like, “I’m so sorry. I got to tell you something. I’ve been an escort and I just didn’t want to tell you. And I feel really bad but I can’t lie to you anymore.” Blah, blah, blah, and I would just spit it all out. And she was like, “Oh my God. That’s great.” And I was like, “What?”

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: And she was like, “That actually makes it so much easier for what I wanted to ask you.” Because then, she wanted to ask me if I wanted me to be a threesome for her husband’s birthday.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: And I was like, “Oh my God. Here we go again.” It sounds hilarious and we laughed about it but then she told me that she had all these secret desires to be a sex worker and she has never has been. And she won’t ever be because she’s married and everything now but her mom had given her these novels to try and scare her off of sex and they had sex workers in them and it had the opposite effect on her.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: She romanticized it in a way. She thought, “Oh my gosh. This is so cool.” So she really helped me switch my mindset around it and then she told me about this show called Secret Diary of a Call Girl. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it.

LEAH: Is that the Jennifer Love Hewitt show?

JOCELYN: Ugh, no. I have things to say about that one. But there are good things and bad things about that show. But the Secret Diary of a Call Girl is based off of a true story. It’s based off of a UK sex worker. I’m trying to think. Her name is Brooke Magnanti and she’s out, she’s fully out, she’s a research scientist now. But she had started a blog with her escapades as a sex worker in Britain and it got turned into a book which then got turned into these TV shows. So Billie Piper is the star of that one. And so she told me about this show, she was like, “Oh my gosh. You need to watch this Secret Diary of a Call Girl show.” And then that was the first time I was introduced to the idea that took me to like my job and that some sex workers choose this work and that it can still be a healthy thing for you because the women I was surrounded by in my work didn’t talk like that.

LEAH: When you say your work, do you mean the massage parlor?

JOCELYN: Yeah, the massage parlor. Most of them had very conflicting feelings about where they worked and were not feeling good about it. So it was a revelation for me to find out that there were other sex workers that felt okay, not just okay, that enjoyed their job. And that chose to be there and that were there because it served them. From then on out, that was a game changer for me. So thank you Billie Piper and thank you Brooke Magnanti for putting all that content out into the world because I really started feeling much better about the fact that I was doing what I was doing.

And then I started allowing more healing experiences to happen as well in my sessions. And I’ll never forget, one time I finished a session with a gentleman and he was so heartfelt in thanking me and he was like, “You’ve changed me. You’ve saved me.” And we only had an hour together. And he was so genuine and I could feel how different he was, that he was in a healthier place because we had that session together. And I couldn’t explain it at the time but something inside me just clicked and said, “You’re exactly where you’re supposed to be right now.”

And I knew that that wasn’t going to be the be all end all and that being sex worker, or being an erotic masseuse, wasn’t my calling but I had an overwhelming sense of certainty that this was exactly where I was supposed to be. It was a stepping stone for me. I didn’t know what that was going to lead to at all. I just knew without a shadow of doubt that I was exactly where I was supposed to be at the right place and the right time for me to be here.

LEAH: So I have a several questions. But first, I want to say that I’ve told you this already and I think I’ve mentioned this here before but I’m not sure.

My journey of sexual healing started when eI visited a sex worker. And so I have tremendous gratitude and respect to people in this industry. The sex worker that I went to was somebody who did tantric massage and I know I’ve talked about this but the very act of touching someone’s naked body in exchange for money when there’s any sexual energy flowing that classifies someone as a sex worker even when what they’re doing is healing work.

You can speak about this more for sure than I can, but I think it’s important to note that there are different types of people who get involved in sex work in that there are some like you who maybe get into it for the money but who are doing it by choice who find it to be a deeply fulfilling experience. And then there are people who get into sex work because, it’s called survival sex work, that is the only thing they have to do in order to keep food in their mouths and to maybe be able to pay rent. And maybe not even be able to pay rent, just find places to stay. And then there’s coerced sex work which is where somebody else sort of pushes you into that field and each of those are very different and so I ache for people who are survival sex workers and for coerced sex workers.

JOCELYN: Me too.

LEAH: I am incredibly grateful for people who choose sex work because it is it for them a way to bring goodness into the world.

JOCELYN: Totally. I would love to see a shift in that. I would love to help sex workers who feel like they don’t have any other skills or they don’t know how to get t but they want to, I would love to help them transition out of that. And I do, off and on I haven’t been t there so much lately, but with a society here in Vancouver called PACE Society. And it is an organization that is by, with and for sex workers and we do have a transition program there so if anyone ever wants help transitioning out of sex work because they don’t feel like it’s serving them, you can go to Pace and get help with that.

Because if you are not enjoying what you’re doing and it’s harming you, then you shouldn’t be doing it. And I would love to see us help people get out if they don’t want to be in, and I would love to help people get more comfortable with what they’re doing if they want to stay in. And I would love to see more of a shift so that the people who enjoy doing it and want to be doing it are doing it. And those who aren’t can move to something else that serves them better.

LEAH: And I’m going to get up on my soapbox for just another minute.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Why I think sex work is so important. So our culture sexualizes women’s bodies. Women’s bodies are used to sell everything from watches to cars to hamburgers. Sometimes hamburgers on cars.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: And all of it is thought of as completely normal but as soon as a woman wants to start making money using her own body, then it becomes criminalized. And I would like for all of us to start thinking of this as women taking ownership and responsibility for their own sexuality. Being given the grace to use what God has given them for something that they fell is important and I also think that its’ incredibly important. There’s so many men in our society who are not getting their touch needs met.

JOCELYN: Totally.

LEAH: And sex workers are so important for helping to fill that gap because when we don’t get our touch needs met, that pain can metastasize into some really awful things. And when it comes to women going to sex workers that is often a place as it was for me where you can have an experience that feels safe because it is monetized. And so you don’t have to worry about your boundaries are being crossed, you don’t have to worry about getting involved in a relationship that you can’t handle. There are so many things that can happen in a healing way for women who have been through trauma when they choose to use a sex worker to work through that trauma.

JOCELYN: Totally. I would really recommend, we haven’t gotten to this part yet, but I work as a surrogate partner now.

LEAH: That’s where we’re going next, so please go.

JOCELYN: Okay. Okay. Because I was going to say you mentioned trauma, so I know, I personally know a few women who have gone to see male surrogates to help them work through a trauma like rape, let’s say. And while many sex workers will be able to help you, not everyone knows how to hold the space for you emotionally and I also really recommend a therapist to be involved as well usually with a surrogate.

With a surrogate relationship, you’re usually also seeing a therapist but you can only go so far talking and working through your trauma with talking. Because the trauma is with your body, that gets imprinted into your cells into your cellular memory. And so when you are trying to be intimate again with another partner, even though you may be feeling really healed in your mind space with your trauma with what happened to you, some things may come up if someone wants to touch you.

And so that’s where a surrogate can be really, really helpful because they know how to hold that space and walk you through unlearning those things with your body so that you can get back to a place of power with your own pleasure.

LEAH: So can you explain, define what a surrogate is and what a surrogate does?

JOCELYN: Yes. It’s a form of sex work but we act as a partner for somebody who may be does not have the ability to have physical touch on their own or I also help couples. I work specifically with people who have physical disabilities as a surrogate and so the majority of people that I work with, well I shouldn’t say the majority of the people, because I also in my private practice deal with able-bodied people as well. But a lot of the times it’s people who are late in life virgins or they’re people who have a physical disability that keeps them from being able to have partnered sex very often or very easily. Sometimes I work with couples who just aren’t able to access each other on their own so I help them access each other using my body.

LEAH: What do that mean access each other?

JOCELYN: So I move them so that they can access each other. So I’ll put one partner on the bed and the other partner in a sling or I move the bed up and down or I actually move their bodies together so they can have intercourse or I get them set up in a position so that they can do oral sex and each other and I leave the room.

LEAH: Wow. That’s amazing. I’ve only ever thought of what you do in terms of like one person with a disability and a surrogate who is helping them have an experience that they normally don’t get to have. But I never thought about two people with disabilities maybe having a hard time getting into those positions and having someone in the room to help them. That is mind-blowingly amazing!

JOCELYN: Yeah. Yeah. It’s pretty cool! And so it doesn’t happen as often but I definitely have helped some couples and the cool thing about that is that through working with me and my coaching and my help, they have learned how to do more things by themselves, so they don’t meet me as often, which is the end goal. It’s super great because their sex life was non-existent before and now they know how to get a few things done on their own even without me being there so that’s the best possible scenario. I love hearing that.

LEAH: So can you sort of describe to us a scene. You can obviously use a real scene and change the names or whatever, but when you’re working one-on-one with a client with a disability, can you sort of describe maybe what disability that would be, what it would keep them from doing and how you are able to interact with that person>?

JOCELYN: Okay. Sure. So again, this is going to be very dependent on the person and what their mobility is like but for instance, I’m going to think about one of my favorite clients.

He has cerebral palsy so he needs to a carrier to come to the appointment because I need help transferring him from his chair to the bed. I’m a really strong woman, don’t get me wrong but it’s just too much with some of the bigger gentlemen and stuff like that. And so the carrier will come, help me transfer him to the bed and then take off until we tell him to come back.

And then I ask the client what it is they are hoping to accomplish that day and so maybe that day, they’re hoping to try penetration or maybe that day they’re hoping to learn about oral sex and giving a partner a pleasure. So I’ll walk them through coaching on that. So I’ll let them use my body but I’ll give them feedback on what they’re doing and pressure and don’t use so much teeth.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: Whatever. Then, it depends on how accessible their body is to me as well whether or not we can actually have intercourse so I have had some cerebral palsy clients that are too, I don’ know what the word is, but they can’t lay flat enough for me to access their body to have proper intercourse so I’ll do massage. I’ll do hand release. I’ll do oral sex with them. Always, always using condoms and barriers obviously. So I’ll do a little bit of kissing, your mileage may vary with that. I’m pretty private about sharing my face with people.

LEAH: But that makes sense that you would one thing that is especially intimate for you.

JOCELYN: Yeah. Totally, totally. So kissing is extremely intimate for me more so than sex by far. Does that answer your question?

LEAH: Yeah.

JOCELYN: It really depends on what it is they’re hoping to work on. But my whole goal is to get them to the experience that they want and hopefully having them feel confident and feeling good about what it is that we’re doing so that if they ever do have the chance to be with another partner, that they feel confident stepping into that with them, with somebody else.

LEAH: So with both the surrogacy that you do now and the sex work that you’ve done in the past, do you derive pleasure from it?

JOCELYN: Yes. This is a taboo thing for me to say.

LEAH: Okay.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: Yes.

LEAH: Like it’s one thing to not hate it, it’s a different thing to get actual sexual pleasure from it.

JOCELYN: For sure. For sure. This is kind of scary to say this on a podcast right now because all of the women I’ve ever worked with, well I shouldn’t say all of them, but the majority of the women that I’ve worked with very much looked down upon any sex worker who enjoyed their job.

And I think there’s a couple of different reasons for that. I think the main one is that the majority of the people that I knew that I worked alongside with were lying about the fact that they worked as a sex worker and most of them were in partnered relationships. So from a compartmentalization perspective, it makes sense to me that if they’re not enjoying themselves with their job, it’s not cheating. And then they’re saving themselves to have pleasure with their partner. So that seemed to be a really common theme.

But also, I think that there’s just a stigma within the industry around treating clients as humans. Most girls that I worked with were very derogatory in the change room towards clients. And it made it easier for them to do the work I think, to think about them as subhuman. And I never enjoyed talking about them like that or thinking about them like that.

I also approached my work with a really healing attitude.  And that was sort of unusual compared to most people. So I’m of the mind that I’m here anyways, I might as well enjoy myself here while I can. So I am definitely not shy about saying, “Oh. Do it this way. It feels nicer like this” or “I like it like that.” I wouldn’t say that I have orgasms frequently. That I definitely do not. But it’s not about me. It’s about the clients.

And so very, very often back when I was doing the front-of-the-mill sex worker escort work, clients would say that a lot. And they would say, “I really want to know what gets you off” or “I really want to know what you like”. And I would kind of just laugh and be like, “Well, this isn’t about me. This is about you.” Because the other thing that you have to consider is, what if I’ve seen five other clients that day? I’m tired, right? Sometimes you just want to get it over with.

LEAH: And so do you fake because they need you to have an orgasm?

JOCELYN: I have never faked a true orgasm. I’ve definitely exaggerated for sure.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: But it’s easy for me to dwell into feeling good and also I feel like it’s easier to connect with the person that you’re with if you’re enjoying yourself and they want you to enjoy yourself. So if they’re really looking into that, then for sure. If I wasn’t feeling it, I would definitely exaggerate it so that we could get things moving.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: But no, I don’t think I’ve ever straight up faked an orgasm. Well, actually, back when I used to perform like I used to go dancing for bachelor parties and stuff, I definitely faked some orgasms but then I was getting fucked by a dildo by my girlfriend in the middle of a group of 20 guys or whatever. Yeah, I faked those orgasms for sure.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Because that was part of the show.

JOCELYN: Exactly. And for me to actually sit there and try to get off is going to take way too long so that’s what happened.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yeah. Do you feel safe as a sex worker, as a surrogate under the current laws in Canada?

JOCELYN: Do I feel safe? Yes, only because I live in a very sex positive province and so we are very lucky in Vancouver that when they passed the Nordic model in 2014, which for those of you who don’t know, the Nordic Model Is a law that criminalizes the buying but not the selling of sex.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: I know. I know. It’s insane. So when that happened, the BCP did release a public statement saying that as long as it’s happening indoors and between consenting adults, it’s business as usual, we’re not getting involved. So we don’t have to worry too much about the legality here in Vancouver. But in other provinces like Alberta, let’s say, runs a little bit more conservative, the police force does not have the same mind, they are definitely doing stings and trying to catch Johns and talking about publicizing databases of people’s names and all sorts of horrendous stuff.

So do I feel safe personally? Yes, for sure. But I know that’s not always the case for people and especially because I’ve always worked indoors. That’s the other thing. I know a lot of women who have worked outdoors in the streets and it is not as safe by far to be doing car dates and to stand in the street corner. Most of the assaults and the horrible stories that I’ve heard happened to workers who were outdoors so I’m lucky that way because I’ve never been an outdoor worker.

LEAH: And one of the big problems, one of the many problems with the Nordic model is that because they’re outlying the Johns, or they’re criminalizing the Johns, it drives the “good” Johns out of the marketplace and you’re left with the creeps and abusers.

JOCELYN: Yeah. That’s right, that’s right.

LEAH: I have so much to say that I’m just going to let it pass right now.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: Okay. Okay.

LEAH: DO you have any red liens when you’re working with clients especially with the surrogate work? Is there something that someone asks you to do that, other than kissing you mentioned, is there anything else?

JOCELYN: Back when I was a traditional sex worker, my spiel was always like, “I’m a very easygoing girl. I like to have fun but just a few things. Don’t touch my face. No fingers inside my body and everything with a condom.” And they were like, “Okay.”

I’m like if fingers being inside my body was absolutely a deal breaker for them then I would just have them put condom on their fingers but I don’t typically enjoy a lot of hands on my vulva or at least back then when I was working because it was just having too many fingers down there was just not enjoyable for me. So that’s been an interesting thing for me to overcome again in my personal life because that’s just a hard pass line for me when I was working that I stopped enjoying it and I had to relearn how to enjoy it in my personal life because I just never allowed it to happen at work.

LEAH: And you have a son. What do you hope his relationship with sex will be as he grows older?

JOCELYN: Oh my gosh. I hope it’s healthy. I’ve had these terrible visions of him becoming a porn star or something like I’m just going to create this monster, right?

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: This hypersexual being. But I hope that he feels comfortable to express himself sexually and to discuss sex and sexuality with his friends with his partners with me and that’s what I hope for him. I hope that he feels supported and happy and healthy in his sex life. That’s all that I want for him so whatever that looks like and whatever he turns out to be in terms of orientation does not matter to me as long as he’s happy, healthy, and fulfilled, then I will be satisfied.

LEAH: Awesome. Jos, we’ve done it!

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: We scheduled a long time and we went even longer than that.

[LAUGHTER]

JOCELYN: So funny. Oh my gosh, this is great. Well, I really appreciate you having me on your show because I think what you’re doing is so important, Leah. My whole mission has to help get people more comfortable to talking about sex and you’re doing exactly that so normalizing sex, and I just want to acknowledge you for also respecting and supporting sex workers because there are a lot of sex educators who don’t. And I really love and appreciate you for that because you understand how we can be a social service, helping and healing people and I think that’s a piece that really gets missed when sex workers are discussed. So I just want to thank you for that, for your support with that.

LEAH: Thank you for saying that and thank you for the work that you’re doing. I think it’s so incredibly important. Awesome, Jos. Thank you so much. I love you.

JOCELYN: I love you too. Thank you for having me on your show.

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LEAH: That’s it for today. If you’re enjoying the show, please take a moment to leave a 5-star rating and review on Apple podcasts or, if you’re using another podcast app, go to www.ratethispodcast.com/goodgirls.

And remember there is a treasure trove of audio extras available FOR FREE at Patreon. Go to www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex. While listening to those extras is free, producing this show is not. If my work is meaningful to you and you have a few dollars to support it each month, I’ll gratefully accept your patronage at Patreon. I donate 10% of all Patreon proceeds to ARC-Southeast, an organization that supports women in the Southeast United States to access reproductive services that are increasingly difficult to obtain.

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Show notes and transcripts for this episode are at www.GoodGirlsTalk.com.

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Good Girls Talk About Sex is produced by me, Leah Carey, and edited by Gretchen Kilby.

I have additional administrative support from Lara O’Connor and Maria Franco.

Transcripts are produced by Jan Acielo.

Before we go, I want to remind you that the things you may have heard about your sexuality aren’t true. You are worthy. You are desirable. You are not broken.

As your Sex and Intimacy coach, I will guide you in embracing the sexuality that is innately yours, no matter what it looks like. To set up your free Discovery Call, go to www.leahcarey.com/coaching.

Until next time, here’s to your better sex life!

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