I trained to be a dominatrix – Rain Dove

Rain Dove grew up with a birth certificate that listed gender as “F.” For much of their life, they imagined that “F” stood for “Failure” to be properly “Female.” Today Rain is a gender-bending model who walks runways for designers of both masculine- and feminine-coded clothing. Rain is also an activist working to make the world better for people of all genders, orientations, and more. Rain is currently assisting vulnerable people to escape Ukraine.

What if gender is not just about genitals, but what we want from the world? In this episode, Rain explains what Gender Capitalism means and shares personal stories about how relationship dynamics and power can be fluid and chosen too.

Rain is 32 years old and white. You’ll hear that Rain speaks differently than many people because Rain eschews most types of categorization. When I asked what their gender identity is and what pronouns they use, they said, “I am I. You can call me with whatever language feels comfortable, but the most respectful thing is to just calm by my name.” When I asked what their sexual orientation is, they said, “I love who I love. I lust who I lust, and I fuck who I fuck consensually.” Their preferred relationship dynamic is open and communicative and tailored to the people who are in it at the time. Rain is partnered, grew up in a Christian home, and describes their body as tall and moderately muscular.

To support Rain’s work evacuating vulnerable and marginalized people from Ukraine, visit www.safebow.org.

Good Girls Talk About Sex
Good Girls Talk About Sex
I trained to be a dominatrix - Rain Dove
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In this episode we talk about

  • Sexual reciprocity
  • Polyamory
  • Demisexuality
  • Fantasies/restraint fantasies
  • Gender capitalism
  • Relationship/power dynamics
  • NIPPLE HAIR!

Sponsors

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Resources

Safebow – a grassroots organization created by Rain Dove and their team that is aiding evacuation from Ukraine following the Russian invasion – https://safebow.org/

A particularly harrowing evacuation from Ukraine – https://uk.style.yahoo.com/style/queer-autistic-ukrainian-refugees-share-love-story-escape-from-the-war-zone-russia-war-lgbtq-191417684.html

Rain’s Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/raindovemodel/

Here’s an incredible example of the type of empathy Rain demonstrates with people who attack – https://www.instagram.com/p/B5k3aaZlOxB/

Leah’s 2017 newspaper article about Rain Dove – https://www.goodgirlstalk.com/rain-dove-happy-defying-gender-stereotypes/

Full episode text

LEAH: Welcome to Good Girls Talk About Sex. I am sex and intimacy coach, Leah Carey, and this is a place to share conversations with all sorts of women about their experience of sexuality. These are unfiltered conversations between adult talking about sex. If anything about the previous sentence offends you, turn back now! And if you’re looking for a trigger warning, you’re not going to get it from me. I believe that you are stronger than the trauma you have experienced. I have faith in your ability to deal with things that upset you. Sound good? Let’s start the show!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Hey friends. I’m really excited to share today’s interview with you because not only is it a great story which it is, but because our guest is involved with helping people in the current conflict in Ukraine. And we’re going to give you a way to make a material difference, but we’ll get there in a minute.

First, some of you may already know Rain Dove from their popular Instagram account @raindovemodel or from their work on the fashion runway as a gender-bending model. My connection with Rain is a bit more immediate. We went to the same high school. I graduated about 15 years before Rain did, but we both had the same favorite teacher and she’s the one who connected us and you’ll hear a little bit about that when we start talking.

In 2017, when I was traveling around the country, I was still working for our hometown newspaper, doing interviews with people wherever I travelled who were doing interesting things. When I arrived in New York City, Rain invited me to visit their apartment and we sat and talked for a couple of hours. Rain opened me to a lot of new ideas during that first conversation and I’m still really partial to that article, so I’m going to link to it in the show notes, if you’d like to read it. Even though Rain was appearing at the time on fashion runways and even worked with Italian Vogue, Rain was more excited about this article than anything else because when you appear as a celebrity in your hometown newspaper, that’s when you know you’ve really made it.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: We recorded this interview in January 2022 before Russia invaded Ukraine, so we don’t talk about that situation at all. Rain was working on several projects at the time that you’ll hear mentioned, but all of that attention and energy got redirected almost immediately upon the invasion.

For the past eight weeks, Rain has been working around the clock helping vulnerable and marginalized people get over the border to safety. Rain has built a team of a couple hundred volunteers, has raised a couple hundred thousand dollars in small donations, and has evacuated over 3,000 transgender, elderly, BIPOC, queer, disabled and other at-risk people to get them to safety. Their work has been verified by CNN, the BBC, Vice, The Guardian, etc.

Being queer or transgender in Ukraine is still really difficult. Meanwhile, Putin has called gender fluidity a crime against humanity and equated homosexuality with pedophilia, so Russia’s not going to be any better. Getting the queer and trans community out of the danger zone has taken on extra importance. Rain and their team used donations to buy bus tickets, find temporary housing, rides, and literally walk trans people over the border. Because when your gender expression doesn’t match the letter on your passport, it can cause a lot of problems, including refusal to let people cross the border.

Watching this rescue mission unfold in Rain’s Instagram stories has been nothing short of miraculous and has also been the one bright spot for me. Donating money to their efforts has been the one small way I felt able to positively affect the devastation we’re seeing. At first, they were doing all of this as a loose network of individuals and taking small donations through PayPal. In March, they organized into a grassroots organization called SafeBow, S-A-F-E-B-O-W. You can find them online at www.safebow.org.

That link is in the show notes on the app you’re listening on now. Please take a few minutes to visit their site and donate some money or some time. They’re still looking for people to make phone calls, do research, be a translator, and lots of other tasks. You don’t need to a specific skillset to volunteer, so please consider lending a hand. Okay. Now, let’s get back to Rain.

Rain is 32 years old and white. You’ll hear that Rain speaks differently than many people because Rain eschews most types of categorization. When I asked what their gender identity is and what pronouns they use, they said, “I am I. You can call me with whatever language feels comfortable, but the most respectful thing is to just calm by my name.” When I asked what their sexual orientation is, they said, “I love who I love. I lust who I lust and I fuck who I fuck consensually.” Their preferred relationship dynamic is open and communicative and tailored to the people who are in it at the time. Rain is partnered, grew up in a Christian home, and describes their body as tall and moderately muscular.

And one more thing before we finally get to the interview. As you’ll hear in the second half of this conversation, Rain has had several high-profile relationships and scandals. You can find news coverage of those people and events, but I only dug into them to the extent that they’re relevant to Rain’s sex life. I’m not in the business of trying to get gossip or tea on famous people especially not without their consent. Rain has a cat and a partner who were in and out during taping, so you’ll hear some extraneous noises. And now, with all of that introduction stuff done, I’m so pleased to introduce Rain!

Rain, thank you so much for joining me today. I am thrilled for so many reasons to have you. So, people know how this came to be, you and I happen to go to the same high school at very different times, but we had the same favorite teacher.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: At least that was true when we first met a couple years ago. We were both grooving on Mrs. Kelly, our history teacher.

RAIN: That’s right. Mrs. Kelley is so cool.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: Really hard on me, but really fair and really good.

LEAH: Yeah. She was really instrumental in helping me realize that it was okay to be smart, which is a big deal.

RAIN: Yeah, 100%. Mrs. Kelley, now that I reflect on it, hardcore Professor McGonagall vibes.

LEAH: Totally, yes.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: That’s how we came to know each other. And I first met you a couple of years ago when I interviewed you for our local newspaper and I’ve been watching as you have taken the world by storm ever since and I’m just thrilled to be talking with you. So, thanks for being here.

RAIN: Thanks for having me. I’m really happy to be with you and I’m really grateful you’re making this podcast.

LEAH: Thanks. So, there’s lots of stuff I want to talk about, but we always start with the first same question which is what is your first memory of sexual pleasure?

RAIN: My first memory of sexual pleasure, that’s interesting. I didn’t really grow up in a sexually expressive environment. It was very repressed, but I got a book at a book sale. I was a huge bookworm and it was called Clan of the Cave Bear.

LEAH: Yes, oh my God.

RAIN: Yes, by J.M. Auel.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: And there is a character in The Wooly Mammoth Hunters which is one of the sequels in the series named Jon and I remember reading a sexual scene between Aila and John and then being like I didn’t understand what was being described, but I would try to visualize it, and then that set, for some reason, was very exciting. And I didn’t know how to emulate that really for myself, but I liked the idea of what it was, even though I didn’t quite understand it. And I think that was my first dip into it was the fantasizing of what is this thing?

LEAH: It’s amazing to me how frequently Clan of the Cave Bear has come up in these interviews in these people’s introductions and it’s part of mine too.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: There’s got to be a lot of garage sales out there. Really well-written.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yeah. She writes some really kick-ass sex scenes.

RAIN: She does.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: My goodness, they’re so good. Two sentences and you’re already like, “Wow.”

LEAH: Yeah. How old were you do you think when that happened?

RAIN: I think I was eight or nine. It was very early. I had a really high reading level because I spent a lot of time alone, didn’t have typical television or anything, so books were my escape and I just devoured that. I loved that series, The Valley of Horses was also a really great one, great scenes in that. But yeah, they were the first one.

LEAH: And was there a point in there where you were reading the books and you thought, “I’m going to touch myself?” Was masturbation part of that experience for you?

RAIN: No, bizarrely not. I just liked the idea of it. When I was younger, I used to like the idea of being restrained or being the idea of being in places of extreme peril, really vulnerable, and then you’d have to work your way out. And then, later on in life, it became incredibly true.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: And then, I was like, “Okay.” But I think that the first time I think I ever did anything physically, we went to a fair in Rhode Island and I was with my great grandparent who’s incredibly Catholic and her husband, my Pepe, was incredibly Catholic. And they took me to this fair and I won my selection of whatever toys and I chose a pair of the child play metal handcuffs.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: And I was just practicing using them and how they felt. And then, I think just by happenstance, I felt like the metal against my clit and I was like, “Whoa, hey, what is this?”

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: I was a very kinky young kid. And I think that didn’t really lead to masturbation. There wasn’t really the idea of what is cumming? What is an orgasm? What is that stuff? There wasn’t really an end goal. That was just a feel good, I think. And then, of course, I think a lot of people graduate as I did onto stuffed animals and things like that or playing roughhouse at school and intentionally letting yourself get tackled.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: Because it would be nice. I have one great memory that is quite a wild one. When Titanic came out, do you remember the movie Titanic?

LEAH: Yeah.

RAIN: And my parents made me go get popcorn for the awful, awful sex scene in the car.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: But I always wanted to be jack. I thought Jack was great and I remember redoing this scene on the playground with these kids, some other girls in my class and I was Jack. And this other girl was Rose and they handcuffed me to the tetherball pole, but unfortunately, they were real handcuffs and they had to call the parents of that child to come with a key to get me out.

LEAH: Oh my god. How did they get their hands on real handcuffs?

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: I don’t know, I was so young. I moved schools a lot, but I’m not going to screw myself on this one, but I think their parents had something to with law enforcement of some kind. But yeah, it was this big deal. I had to sit outside with this tetherball pole for over an hour waiting for this parent to come.

LEAH: Was it just an uncomfortable experience or was there something titillating about that for you? The humiliation of it and all?

RAIN: Yeah, it was great.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: Yeah, not the humiliation, the aftermath of it, waiting was so embarrassing. Parents being like, “What are you guys playing?” We’re like, “Nothing.”

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: But when you’re that young, you feel very much like you’re trying to be an adult and you feel like adults don’t really know what they’re doing. And you’re emulating a lot of things and the idea of forbidden love and the idea of things that they can’t have, that was really exciting to me.  And also, I grew up in a household in which unfortunately, I think a lot of people experience this in rural communities but I had a parent who was very dependent on alcohol.

We have a much better relationship now, but they still are very dependent on alcohol and they were a very intense person. I would say probably violently so. So, I think sometimes when we have these fantasies of being restrained and stuff, but on our terms, it’s a weird reclamation or trying to make sense of things that have happened to us as younger individuals or trying to put a purpose to it.

I always liked the idea of being for bravery. And so, when you’re Jack in the Titanic, he’s a noble guy. And being handcuffed up as Jack and your lover comes to try and save you, there’s this whole thing of you’re really doing a parallel to your own life and trying to make sense of what you’re surviving through. And I think I derived a lot of pleasure thinking maybe it was for some reason.

LEAH: Yeah. So, one of the things that people know you for is your gender play. I don’t know exactly what the right term would be that you used for it. How do you describe what you do?

RAIN: I used to use the term gender capitalism, which is to be a gender capitalist, it’s really simple. You look at the world and you see that the world has turned itself into a place in which being perceived as a specific sex or gender may oftentimes get you different types of treatment and no one person is treated wholly and truly to one experience. It’s usually tipped in one direction or another based off from what somebody’s perceived to be.

And a gender capitalist is a person who looks at the most beneficial paths in life and emulates the gender or sex experience that they need to in order to get the best out of the people that are around them. Now, I don’t do that anymore. Occasionally, I do when I travel to really dangerous places. Now, I’m pretty good at telling people, “I don’t think you’re treating me fairly or why is that priced this way?”

However, my life of having to emulate a lot of different gender expressions has led to a non-queer non-trans exploration for a lot of people, something very relatable, which is that one of the first divisions we experience at birth and probably one of the first ones ever verbalized is, “It’s a boy or it’s a girl.”

The utterance of that particular identity is not just about your genitals, it’s about your future and about what people believe you deserve and where you stand in life. And so, my work is around getting people to reset that standard and question the world around them and say, “Am I really getting the best out of the beings around me? Or am I getting cheated in some kind of a sense?”

I do that through a lot of different forms and a lot of different activism-based forms, but in the modeling world, I model as what we would be perceived both male and female, masculine and feminine, and everything in between. In reality, in my mind, while I respect people’s gender identities and I do use whatever people want me to call them by because that is the right thing to do, in my opinion, I don’t see the world as male or female. I see it as many beings who are far more complex than this simplistic way in which we have described them. And I think that in the era of information and this ability to store the information, I think we can do a lot better than what we’ve done.

LEAH: I love that. So, going back to your childhood experience, did you experience yourself as a little girl or was there already some reckoning in your mind around those?

RAIN: I don’t know if I was ever little. I’ve always been really tall.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: I was 6 foot tall in sixth grade. I think I have a lot of pride in the being that I’ve been, even when I haven’t been a great being to be around. I’m proud that this journey has led me to where I am now. As a child, I was definitely not one of the pretty girls and I had to reconcile with that.

But at a young age, I wasn’t casting aside the term female or the term girl because I didn’t really think that was an option. So, I looked at, what kind of girl am I? I determined maybe I was like Trinity from The Matrix or Alice from Resident Evil or maybe I was just Annie Oakley. I was that kind of very maybe I wasn’t going to survive well in this life, but give me an apocalypse and a shotgun and I’ll take my German Shepherd and my motorcycle down the road and I would live just fine.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: I always felt like I was destined to be alone, but powerful. And that I was always destined to be in a space where I’m living a life of service to other people because I have muscles and height and grit and can-do attitude.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: At the time, that may sound really narcissistic or egotistical to some people, but if I didn’t believe in myself that that was my purpose, I don’t think I would have chosen to live. It was a very difficult time to feel like for the rest of your life, you’re doomed to be the one who doesn’t quite cut it, the one who always has to fight for themselves.

I’m not the girl who’s going to get swept off her feet next door. I’m not going to fulfill what society has deemed to be the female fantasy, the pretty woman ideology. And over time, I wanted a lot of other people who had an F on their birth certificate to feel that that F wasn’t their definition, that there’s something for them beyond this expectation of what that represented.

LEAH: Yeah. So, at one point, did you engage with another person in a romantic or sensual or sexual way?

RAIN: I didn’t realize it at the point, but I definitely had a crush on this person who identifies as female and who is AFAB named Katie. It was in elementary school. I was so jealous of anyone who tried to take her away and be her friend.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: But actually, my first romantic partner was an individual named Roy who left me for my best friend named Sheila. And the two of them are together to this day and they have a child and everything, so good choice.

[LAUGHTER]

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Are you aching to explore new vistas of your sexuality? Do you hear me talk about concepts on this show and think, “It makes sense, but I need help applying to my particular situation?” That’s where personalized sex and intimacy coaching comes in. When you work with me, I promise to help you feel safe exploring your sexuality. Together, we’ll look at your needs and desires without judgment and help you figure out how to fulfill them.

There is no single answer that’s right for everyone, so I’m going to help you discover what’s right for you and we’ll go at your pace. That’s the pace that respects your emotional needs, your boundaries, and your nervous system. Because going too fast can send into shutdown while going too slow can be infuriating and exhausting. The goal is to find what’s right for you.

I work with clients who are motivated to explore many different areas of sexuality including things like expressing your sexual desires to current or future partners, exploring if you might be queer, challenging body image insecurity in sexual relationships, dipping your toes into BDSM, exploring consensual non-monogamy, learning to date after a long time out of the dating pool, exploring your sexuality for later in life virgins, and so much more. I want you to have a deeply fulfilling intimate life and together we can help you get there. For more information and to schedule your discovery call, visit www.leahcarey.com/coaching. That’s www.leahcarey.com/coaching.

[MUSIC]

RAIN: I would always say no sex before marriage. But it was genuinely, I did not want to have sex with this person because while my first sexual fantasies may have been around this book where there were penetrative things involved, I realized I wasn’t really comfortable, I wasn’t really interested in penises throughout my high school years.

Part of it could be tied to the fact that my mother and my grandmother and my great grandmother all had children, my mom had me when she was 18 or 19. My grandmother as well at a young age, so there’s a history and I think I was trying to break that cycle. But also, I just genuinely was like, “I don’t want to be used. I’m not your toy.” That Trinity complex, that independence complex.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: And Roy, for me, was more it was about winning a game, I wanted to have him, so I could. Everybody wanted to be with Roy and I was like, “Okay. If everyone wants this and I have this, then this is a thing that’s good.” And we had a lot of fun. We had so much fun and we had zero sex.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, when you say sex, are you saying penetrative like PIV, penis in vagina? And were there other things that you did do or did you not do anything physical?

RAIN: Nothing. We made out. We held hands. They wanted to be in vigorous full-on clothing kind of situation and I just would always be like, “No, no sex before marriage.” I was pretty dead set. I was also a born-again Christian at that time period. My parents had just divorced and I was living with my mother at the time. And I think for me, I also was trying to live a legacy.

And then, my second partner was a person named Olivia who was an extreme Christian and I would stay over at her place. And then, she’d kiss me while I was sleeping. It was creepy, but I knew. I was awake, but I would pretend I was asleep. And then, one day she admitted it to me and I was like, “What? How dare you!” And I was a mess. We had to call my friend. I was like, “I don’t know if I could live with this.” And I was upset because I thought this was going to end the only family that I had, which was with the church at the time. I was staying with this church.

LEAH: Did you enjoy it when she kissed you?

RAIN: Yeah, it was great.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: And then, my friend came over and was like, “This isn’t a big deal. God would be fine with this.” And so, I dated this girl, but I needed a cover date. I needed someone to be a decoy. So, I had a friend, their name was Kelsie. He and I dated for a year or two and he also had a boyfriend at the time and I had a girlfriend at the time and we both were respectful of each other having side partners while we actually had an amazing really fun relationship.

And his mother was a sex therapist and she would always be like, “Okay, here’s all the things in case you guys want to have sex.” And in that relationship too I was also like, “No sex before marriage.” We didn’t do anything. We would snuggle. We would make out. We would wrestle a lot, but no orgasms, nothing sexual happened. Nobody touched anyone in the regions, not even breasts. It was like still very play school kind of dynamic and I love that person. They were such an amazing human being.

LEAH: How old were you? Was this still in high school?

RAIN: Yeah. That would have been my junior year in high school.

LEAH: So, you were already engaging in some polyamorous dynamics in high school.

RAIN: Yeah. And it was weird because it was so easy. And also, in senior year, they all went off to college and I was still in high school. And so, they would tell me about their great dates and I was just like, “Yeah, go for it.” I think in my heart, I knew I was never going to be with them, so that made it a lot easier. We weren’t building a life together.

But over time, they did want to have a more life-building kind of space. They did talk about maybe marriage, doing other things. We were young. It just seemed like something you’d do. And I was not interested. At that point, I was fully into exploring dynamics with other people who identified as female that time because I wanted to know that I could. And so, when Olivia and I didn’t work out, I ended up dating another person who identified as a lesbian and I wasn’t in a relationship I really wanted to be in. It was not a consensual relationship.

LEAH: Meaning what?

RAIN: I went on Plenty of Fish to explore my queerness and just to figure out with Olivia, it was great, but once again, I won’t give too many details about that because I don’t have that person’s consent I think to speak freely. And they live still in a very conservative environment, but I wanted to explore because there were a lot of unanswered questions about my sexuality and identity.

And so, like many people at the time, I went on Plenty of Fish and I would have these pen pals and talk to people and explore different fantasies and stuff. And with this other person that I dated, I didn’t intend on dating them. I just was asking them questions, and then they expressed that they were in a really tough space financially and they were a BIPOC queer individual from Chicago and they felt like their intersectionalities were going to impeded their ability to ever get ahead in life.

At the time, I really felt like I was doing something good, but if I reflect on it with knowledge that I have today, I realized that my engagement with them was in a white savior capacity, which I’m embarrassed by. But at the time, I was like, “Vermont gives a lot of college education grants to black individuals because they really want to encourage the diversity that the state champions, but doesn’t have much of.” And I was like, “Why don’t you come out here? And I will work hard. I will get you a bus ticket and you can stay at my place with my mom and we’ll get you enrolled into some colleges. And if something accepts you, you can go to school here and start your life over.”

And she got on a bus and she came out to Vermont. And then, she realized I wasn’t out to my mom and then she’s like, “I’m in love with you.” And I’m like, “I’m not in love with you.” And she was like, “I want you to give it a shot because I think you would really like a dynamic with me.” And she basically said if I didn’t give her a chance and date her, she would tell my mom that I was queer and I didn’t want my mom to know because there was a lot of interpersonal things.

So, I ended up dating this person and having sex with this person that I think there were a lot of wonderful qualities about them, but it wasn’t very good. It was a bad situation and I feel bad because I also was not able to give them what they wanted from me, which is we’re both very young and they wanted me to be their forever person. And from the beginning, I was not interested in being that person with them.

LEAH: Was that your first experience of the kind of interaction that would lead to an orgasm?

RAIN: Yeah. They were my first sexual experience. I would say it’s so bizarre if you look back at it and it wasn’t a rape situation, but it was very interesting and coercive in certain ways. And it’s not their fault because I could’ve said no at any point, but I really did feel terrified of them telling my parents.

LEAH: Yeah, that’s definitely coercive. That is a definition of coercion.

RAIN: Yeah. But at the same time, you go back and you look at it, and you’re like, “Okay, this is definitely a toxic unhealthy space.” I held a lot more power than I thought about or gave myself credit for in that time. I was the one who’s name was on the apartment when we finally did get an apartment space. Pretty much I worked three jobs and this other individual was unfortunately not able to stay employed because they just needed support in other ways and I don’t blame them for that. That happens.

It’s hard because I think another thing is I want to bring up the white savior element of things. See, this is my first time ever meeting and engaging with a black person in my life. And I felt like if you’re from a marginalized community, whether it be black or with disability or with being queer or whatever, that we can’t possibly take advantage or hurt each other because as marginalized people, we are on the bottom rung.

And so, I felt like if I rejected this individual, I was racist. If I set boundaries with this person or said no, then that was my racism showing. So, there was a lot of things to unpack there and what I’ve learned a lot from other experiences because my primary dating history has been with BIPOC individuals from dating other partners and speaking with other people that sometimes dynamics are just unhealthy and the intersectionalities, there’s trauma and there’s things in there, but that it’s not necessarily racist to say no to somebody.

And so, for me, it’s even hard for me to talk about it with you. It’s hard. The context of it, I’m in a very different place as a person now, so I’m just trying to be honest about where I was at that period of time. I genuinely was like, “If I leave this person, I’m leaving a black person in Burlington by themselves with no money and no credit and I can’t kick them out of the house. They have nowhere to go. I brought them out here and I can’t expect this person to try to work.”

They got fired from their job working at UVM because they threw a frying pan at someone’s head, just engaging with someone. That comes from their own trauma and their own history, but I couldn’t even ask them. I couldn’t be like, “Hey, can you go try and get another job?” I couldn’t ask that because I was conditioned to think these are selfish and wrong things to ask people.

And in a weird way, my actions towards them were racist because I didn’t expect the same of them with other people. I didn’t look at them as an individual. I looked at them as an idea and an idea that I wanted to treat with dignity and care, but I overcompensated and it led to us being in a mutually toxic environment. Yeah, it’s hard. I don’t think I’ve ever talked to anyone about that dynamic in a public sphere. It’s a very difficult one and it didn’t set me up for success with dating in the future. I’ll tell you that.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: That story reminds me a bit of one of my own experiences, totally different details, of course, but that I was involved with another woman. And I believe that we were both really good people, but together, we were toxic. The analogy I use is like coke and mentos. Coke is fine and mentos are fine and they’re both fairly non-aggressive, but you put them together and some really unfortunate interactions happen.

RAIN: They do. Actually, after that dynamic with that individual, I was not a healthy person to be in a relationship with because I hadn’t processed childhood trauma, poverty trauma, and the trauma of having that kind of non-consensual sexual dynamic. And it’s really hard when you’re 6′ tall and you’re dominated by someone who’s like 5′ 4″. And it’s a psychological domination.

So, you look at your physical body and you’re like, “I had so much power. I don’t understand. I must have wanted this.” And so, yeah, I did a confessional video when I was 30. I put it out on YouTube about all the people I’ve cheated on and people were really upset about hearing that list because they would think I would be a really healthy person to date. But in my early to mid-20s, I was a scoundrel. I really was not great. I wish I were better. I wish I could say I was great, but I wasn’t.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, you’ve talked about some experiences where sex was not on the table because you wait until marriage. And then, you’ve talked about some coercive sexual experiences or sexuality inside a coercive relationship. What was your first really great sexual experience?

RAIN: This one’s easy. So, I used to work doing Conservation Corps work. I did Vermont Youth Conservation Corps. I also worked for the Rocky Mountain Youth Corps. I worked on a saw team doing wildfire prevention, which is not the same as wildfire fighting. Preventing wildfires by doing control burns and cutting down dead things.

And while I was there, I made a pen pal who was this amazing Indian Muslim queer super confident in who they were kind of person from a very conversative family that really, really was against those kinds of ideologies. When I went out to San Francisco to explore my identity and I was living in my car, I got to meet them in person. I didn’t know what they looked like because back then, we met on Craigslist women for women and I didn’t know what they looked like really. And I was standing in the square where they told me to wait and when I saw this person walking up, I knew it was them. I knew it. They were just so hot. Oh my gosh. So sexy.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: I was like, “Oh my god. I could see a future.” We spent all day and night just having a great time and exploring the world. And then, I didn’t want to tell them that I was homeless because I didn’t really feel like that was sexy information at the time and I intended on getting an apartment to stay in soon, so I went to their place and they snuck me in through their window like we were kids.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: And yeah, we had this really, really basic oral sex. I had no idea what I was doing.

LEAH: How old were you at this point?

RAIN: I was 20, maybe 21, something like that. I think 20. And we had very basic oral sex. It was a very short-lived fast and furious situation. It was wonderful. It was great. And then, I was like, “This is the one.”

[LAUGHTER]

[MUSIC]

LEAH: In the last episode, I shared with you how I was drooling over the erotic spanking course in the Beducated app. This week, I’ve been exploring further and I can’t believe how good these courses are. So, I’m talking about Beducated, a platform that provides on-demand courses in all sorts of categories, communication, kink, anal sex, penis massage, vulva massage, etc. There’s a huge library of courses that teach techniques on live models, so you’re not left trying to interpret a somewhat ambiguous line drawing to figure out how something works on an actual body.

Today, I’ve been watching the penis massage course by Libby Sheppard. I got excited about this because my partner has been having a hard time for the last few weeks and I want to spend some time nurturing him and this seems like a great way to start. The penis massage lessons include video demonstrations of massaging the perineum, the pelvis, the shaft, the tip, and balls. Then, there’s a full penis massage session, so you can see it all put together.

This is what I’ve been waiting for to see these things demonstrated on a live body rather than trying to interpolate something from a banana to an actual penis. And sometime, a few weeks from now, when my partner’s ready to reciprocate, you better believe I’m going to give him the vulva and vagina massage lesson to do on me. Those videos include instructions on massaging the pelvis, the vulva, the labial lips, the clitoris, and internal massage, plus a full vulva and vagina massage demonstration.

So, if all of this sounds good to you, grab a free trial to the Beducated platform, which gives you access to a huge library of courses. When you sign up through my link with the coupon code GOODGIRLSTALK, you’ll get 65% off the yearly pass and that discount will be locked in for life, not just for the first year, but forever. So, level up your love life and join Beducated for just $9.99 a month. Click the link in the description of this episode and use the coupon code GOODGIRLSTALK. Let’s get Beducated!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: People often ask me how they can discover their turn-ons if they’ve never thought about it before. You’ve probably heard me recommend watching sexy scenes in TV or movies or reading erotica. And now, there’s another option that I think has them all beat. Audio erotica. You can listen to an ever-expanding library of erotic stories on your phone through the Dipsea app.

Every story is a fully immersive radio play where you get to hear the characters flirt, dirty talk, have consent conversations, work each other up, and yes, orgasm. If you’re learning about your turn-ons, here’s my recommendation. Click the search button and look up the activities you’re curious about: Anal, BDSM, camping, dominance, edging, and the rest of your ABCs.

The other day, I was listening to episode one of a series called The Seller that includes the tags co-worker, rough and wild, intense language, and in public. I was really getting into the hotness of the scene when the woman pleaded, “I need you inside me,” and the guy said, “Have you been tested?” And she replied, “Last week. You?” “This week, all good.” And she gasped, “Good. I just need you inside me.”

That’s one of the many things I love about Dipsea. They take care to demonstrate safety protocols and consent conversations in ways that make them feel accessible and so much less scary. Dipsea releasees new content every week including the next episode in the series The Seller which I’m so excited for, so there are constantly new fantasies for you to explore. For listeners of this show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to www.dipseastories.com/goodgirls. That’s 30 days of full access for free when you go to www.dipseastories.com/goodgirls. That link is in the show notes, so go to www.dipseastories.com/goodgirls.

[MUSIC]

RAIN: I think my dynamic was really important because when they did find out I was homeless because I wasn’t a great human being with telling the truth and stuff, I didn’t want people to know I was homeless, I lied about my employment. I lied to everyone. Why I’m late, it’s because I couldn’t afford the train ticket. So, I’d get detained if I tried to jump the train stalls to get onboard and I lie about where I lived. And I just didn’t want people to know the me that was me because the me that was me was broken and alone and low hygiene.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: And that just didn’t seem appealing. Who would want to hire somebody that’s unstable? Who would want to date somebody who was that unstable? Who’d want to be friends with somebody who’s that unstable? So, we ended up dating long enough that the truth came out about where I was living and what I was doing. And we actually had sex in my car and somebody drove by with a bicycle and circled the car. He’s like, “It’s okay. I do it too.” And drove away.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: I remember pretty vividly laughing about it for a while. But I know that it’s so silly why sex in the car is such a formative thing, but it was because this person, this was where I was living. This was me at one of the lowest points of my life. And this person still found me sexually desirable and still wanted to engage with me. And yeah, it was probably a little gross and everything hygienically in the space.

But it was very important because it made me realize that I can be desirable no matter where I am in my life as long as I’m open and clear and honest with people. Our relationship didn’t end up working out. We had just moved in and they just left. So, that was tough. Another formative relationship would have been I had never had a one-off fling before. I had never done that. When I was 23, I had an amazing fling with this person who was maybe eight years older than me. They were a performance artist, one of those ones that makes headdresses for a living. And they were a Leo and they were tall and gorgeous and blonde and powerful.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: And I had never been in this space where I just had sex once, and then that was it. I had put together their Ikea furniture and they wanted sex.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: And I was like, “Okay.” And that was really wonderful. Another thing is that I lived in a bordello for a while.

LEAH: Really?

RAIN: Yes, I did. I lived at this place called Jack London George’s and I just was cooking for them. And I was asked if I wanted to do cooking for Swinger Saturdays, but I didn’t know what swinging was. I thought it was swing dancing. So, when I showed up, I discovered it was something very different.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: And I got to see a lot of people engaging in really unique dynamics. Some which were bought and paid for and some which were dynamics that people had had for a long time and they were inviting a third in and that was really special. And I think I’ve had so many dynamics. I had another one with a person at the time she was very famous and I was very unknown. I was a transient person in New York City and she had surgery on her nose and she had two big black circles. And she didn’t want anyone to see her with black eyes out in public.

So, I took her camping so that she could just be away from people and we went into the forest and it was like one rule. We’re not going to talk for the next three days. We’re going to live off the land. And the two of us had the most amazing silent sex in the forest and we stole this boat one morning. One morning, we made coffee on the fire and then stole somebody’s boat from their quiet closed little summer home ad floated out in the middle of this pond and just I gave them oral sex.

I was not receiving at the time, but it was amazing. I would say one of the difficult things about being masc presenting is that a lot of dynamics, I have not really been much of a recipient of sexual experiences. I’ve been more of a provider. A lot of people I tend to date tend to be societally deemed as very feminine. They come with a lot of those traits. A lot of people who have things like endometriosis and/or trauma that impedes them from wanting certain experiences, but I really still enjoy sex with them because I like being in providership or service-based thing.

I don’t feel like I’m losing out in the sexual dynamic. I like being able to create something that nobody else could create for this person which is a completely unapologetic safe space for them to just ask for what they want and not feel like they have to reciprocate or they have to do anything.

But this led to me not necessarily being the most loyal of partners because I still wanted something, but I just didn’t want to demand it from that person. That was something I had to work through, but it is something that has been a theme in my life is building a life with someone who can’t really reciprocate sexually, but feeling like a pillar in their life because it would be very difficult for them to find a person that they feel safe with to give them the sexual experience that they do want. Maybe it’s not difficult for them to find, but they feel like it’s difficult to find.

LEAH: Do you ever miss receiving? Is that something that you wish you got more of?

RAIN: I’ve been in different dynamics, some of which I receive more than others, but sometimes, I’ve had that feeling where I want to be in a more mutual dynamic. But in a weird way, I think there’s some kind of nobility that comes behind if I’ve had people who are masc presenting or butch identifying in the sense that they don’t want you be like their fathers and they don’t want to be like the abusers out there and they feel a kinship towards what it means to be abused as someone with an F on their birth certificate.

And so, they try to be the epitome of what could and should be. And ofttimes, I think it’s a very common thing that butch or masc presenting AFAB people are very service-oriented in sex and aren’t necessarily like, “No, this is what I want.” Because they don’t want the other person to feel pressured into it. I have had a couple of partners in my life that have been like they are down.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: And they enjoy it which is a really, really important thing. I dated this amazing Jewish photographer. They were the best person in my life and I had a really great time with them, but I also was not ready for someone who was as confrontational as they were. They weren’t a bad confrontational, but they were very confident in who they were and they were like, “Tell me what you want. Why aren’t you doing this? I want to challenge you more.” And them challenging me to be a better person terrified me. So, our relationship didn’t work out because I wanted to sit in my comfortable little do-nothing hole and they were like, “You got to get out of the hole.” And I was like, “No, go away.” So, they did.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: But they were a very amazing reciprocal partner. I also have been in some dynamics with older individuals as well back when I was 23 or 24. I trained to be a dominatrix, so that I could work at the Emeryville Gates. I’m really proud of that training and I have no shame around it and I have a lot of respect for not just sex workers, but sex therapists and people who work in that field.

Because of that reputation though, I have dated a few people in the past couple of years where it’s not about me being masc presenting, but because of the reputation of having trained in those fields. I get into dynamics with people where they expect that our relationship will be a BDSM relationship and I don’t necessarily want that relationship out of that individual and that’s been really challenging as well.

LEAH: Yeah. So, you have been in several high-profile relationships or relationships with high profile people.

RAIN: Yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: How does that affect your experience of being in a relationship knowing that the world is watching?

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: I think that it’s different with each person. I had one person that the world was just slamming at the time and they were a product of so much trauma that I really wanted them to have a good sexual experience. And I took a space of service backseat in their life. I was like I’m going to get them not living in hotels and live in an actual apartment. I want them to have a good orgasm where they don’t feel like they have to give me anything in return. I want them to feel like they don’t have to be on all the time.

And the person was a very fiery individual and that sexual experience was very interesting because I only ever received sexual reciprocation from them once and they said, “I just want to see what it feels like.” And then, they’re like, “No.” And if I wanted to masturbate or something, they’re like, “Do that in the other room.”

Now, at the time, I was madly in love with them. Oh my gosh. I was so in love with this person. I really thought that they were in love with me too. And then, I found out that they weren’t queer in the least and they had been just trying to get out of a scandal in which they had been called transphobic at the beginning of our dynamic, but they were happy to receive sexual experiences and they really enjoyed those sexual experiences. They definitely did not lie about that. They even talked about it with friends and stuff.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: I only know because I ran their social media for them, not because I was snooping. It was just stuff pops up. I wasn’t a snooper. Another person I dated that was high-profile was a really bad situation. They were much older than me and also, they were the kind of person that wanted to be able to touch me when they wanted to touch me and they wanted me engaged with them when I engaged with them and it was not a dynamic that I was comfortable in.

And at the same time, they had a lot of power over my career and a lot of power over my partner at the time’s career and they were like, “You’ll never work again. I own three different press things. You’ll never work again.” And to this day, my career is still impacted by having been engaging with that person, but sex with someone who’s coercive is never really very fun.

And with Kate, oh my gosh, I think Kate, even though she broke my heart and left me for her plastic surgeon that fixed her nose in the first place and is still with that person by the way. You can look it up. Kate is still with that person. That person, even though it didn’t work out, was the love of my life for sure at the time. Oh my gosh. To this day, I think I wish I could still be good friends with them.

We had such an amazing time. And sex in that situation was really fun and playful because they were coming from an Amish community where they couldn’t explore this side. And this was a moment in their life where they were curious about their sexuality and they were just exploring it through me and they’re also exploring orgasms and interesting things in their body that they hadn’t really had and foreplay and oral sex. There were so many things. And I think that was the best one. And then, later on their career got in the way of what they wanted to do and also maybe they just weren’t that into me. It’s fine, yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Friends, if you love these conversations, I would love your help to keep them going. There are three ways you can participate. Two are free and one is for listeners who got a few extra dollars each month.

Number one, take a screenshot of this episode right now and post it to your Instagram stories. Tag me in your post and if it’s public, I’ll reshare and send you a personal thank you. Word of mouth is the best way to build buzz for an independent show like Good Girls Talk About Sex. And the more people listening, the healthier our collective sexual experiences will become.

Number two, don’t want the whole world to know you’re listening to a show about sex? I get it. Perhaps you heard something in this episode the reminds you of a past conversation with a friend or something you wish your partner knew. Send them a link to this episode and a quick message about why you think they should listen.

And number three, if you have the resources to support the sex positive work I do, I’d be grateful for your support at Patreon. Donating the equivalent of a fancy cup of coffee each month might not make a big difference to you, but it makes a huge difference to me. There’s absolutely no contract or obligation. You can cancel it anytime plus I donate 10% of all proceeds to ARC-Southeast, an organization that supports women in the Southeast United States to access reproductive services that are currently being legislated out of existence. It’s easy to become a patron at www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex.

And one more thing, there is a treasure trove of additional audio at Patreon that’s free to everyone. You don’t even need to have a Patreon account to access them. Just go to www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex to start listening. I appreciate everyone one of you whether you’re a client, a patron, a social media follower or a silent listener. I trust you to know what’s right for you. Thank you for being here. Now, let’s get back to the show.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: So, let’s talk for a minute about your current relationship and recognizing that there may be some privacy boundaries here, but what is your relationship with your current partner like?

RAIN: My relationship with my current partner is amazing. I think the pandemic has been one of the worst things to happen to this planet and also one of the best things to happen to my personal growth as a being. This person was the first person I’ve ever dated that I was friends with first.

I developed a friendship with them for over a year. We were collaborators and content creators and I got to admire them as a being and they made the first move. I didn’t make the first move which happens a lot. I’m actually quite a shy person, but the fact that they made the first move made me feel even better as a being. And we’ve been through so much. We’ve lived in favelas in Colombia, shooting documentaries with indigenous people in the, desert and we’ve been on red carpets together and in some of the most exclusive places on the planet like the Maldives and things like that.

When we finally did decide to live together, we started out living, we shared a single bedroom in government housing and it was so tiny and we worked our way up to being able to have our own place and it has everything that we want as people.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: And most importantly, in 2019, I had one of the toughest moments of my life. Saturn return just came around and just slapped me to the ground like, “You need to be humble.” And essentially, everything that wasn’t good about my past came to the public eye and I got slammed. It was intense. And it was important that that happened. It was very important that that happened, but Kelsey stuck with me through that.

She stuck with me through that when I was ranting and raving and wanted to commit suicide and I didn’t want to exist anymore. She still wanted to have sex with me. She still wanted to hold me and love me and kiss me and be seen with me and I’m like, “If she can be with me during that period of my life, where I was learning a lot of lessons, I don’t know if anyone could.” I’m really grateful and ever since that moment, I’m like, “I’m going to be a better person for myself, for the world, for this person.” I want to cry. She’s amazing.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: Yeah. And we have a really clear communication in our dynamic. Kelsey is demisexual. And so, you know how people say a healthy dynamic is one that’s having sex three or four times a week?

LEAH: Bullshit.

RAIN: I think it’s bullshit.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: We had sex when we want to have sex and sometimes it’s frequent and sometimes it’s not, but there’s no shaming. If a person wants to masturbate, If the other person’s like, “I’m not into it today,” the other person literally can masturbate right next to the person without it being like, “Ugh, god. Can you take that into the other room or don’t?”

It just is people are free to live as they want to and also both of us are working through trauma with previous partners, but we still have a lot to explore in our dynamic sexually that we haven’t explored yet. But we haven’t cut off and said we’re not going to explore these things. It’s like we take things safely, carefully, moment by moment. And as a result, we may not have sex as frequently as some couples, but when we do, it’s really good sex because it’s wanted. It’s not placated. It’s communicated. It’s clear. People can ask for what they want in the moment and she has just been a fun partner to explore with, yeah.

LEAH: That’s wonderful. I’m really happy for you.

RAIN: Thank you.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: One of the things you are known for in your public platform is the fact that people come and attack you with some regularity.

RAIN: Yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: And probably way more regularity than anybody knows, but you have this way of turning those conversations around and sharing them so that they become learning experiences and experiences of compassion for the people who were initially attacking you. Where do you find the compassion for that and for those people?

RAIN: It’s really simple. I’ve spent a lot of time alone. A lot of time. My transient years lasted about four and a half years of my life. I wasn’t male or female or sexually desirable at that point. I was just inconvenient. I was a being on the planet and I had to work through a lot of issues and ego and things like that. But during that time period, I developed a lot of habits. Lying, stealing, cheating, doing whatever I had to do to try to get myself some kind of stability in love, in life, in career. I wasn’t the kind of person that I would recommend other people hang around.

Although I did have some good qualities, I’m not going to flog myself too much on that, but I will say while I had a lot of good intentions, I didn’t always have great executions. When it comes to how I treat people today, I look at why I am the person I am now and why I’m in a space where I want to give back and I want to love the world and I want to learn.

And it’s because people at various points in my life, the ones who have gotten through to me are not the ones who want slam me down or screamed at me or held me at arm’s length while also trying to wring my neck. The people that really helped me change and evolve as a person were the people who took the time to sit with me and communicate in a way that tries to see me beyond the being I was being in that moment. They looked at my core as a person. They wanted to get to know me.

And with every person I see, I know that this may sound a little narcissistic to some people, but it is how I work, is I see myself in a lot of people on this planet. Pretty much every person, we share some kind of core thread of truth and if you keep yourself aligned with that, then at the end of the day, unless you plan on extinguishing that person, then you have to think about your end goal of what you want that person to be which is where you are.

So, you have to do the hard work and layer through that individual, but it isn’t work that everyone has to do and it’s not better than righteous rage. It’s just how I personally work with people because if I give up on people, then I’m saying I, as well, deserve to be given up on at a period in my life. And sometimes, conversations, you have to put a pin in them because the person isn’t ready to move past or through wherever they’re in and that’s okay. But I will never close off a seat at the table for anyone who wants to sit there no matter how controversial. And I know that’s not a popular way of thinking now, but it is how I feel and it’s the credo I live by.

LEAH: I wish there were more people who lived that way.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: I can understand why they don’t.

LEAH: Yeah. It’s incredibly just humbling and inspiring to watch the way that you talk to people. One of the things that is ay like I feel like my brand or whatever is radical empathy and yet I watch what you do and I think you are the master and I’m still down at rung one.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: No, I fail on so many conversations. And fail maybe isn’t the right word, there are a lot of conversations that don’t go to where I wish they could go.

LEAH: But that’s not on you.

RAIN: No, it isn’t.

LEAH: Because the other person has a place in that too.

RAIN: Yes, and just because on screen I’m able to say things in a way that is really centered and aligned doesn’t mean that behind this screen, I’m like punching the air and stuff.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: There have been times where I have just sat there and I’ve typed and retyped and I have actually a dump box of what I wish I could say. And then, sometimes I’ll just write it out and then I say it out loud. I’ll just say it out loud so it can be heard and then I’ll go through and I’ll be like, “Now that has been honored, the immediate need for my rage to be understood, I need to think about this person outside of myself.” Because at the end of the day, I can log off, but the people in their life cannot. And so, I have to think about those people and I have to reach deeper than my own ego. It’s not always easy to do because it’s not the first instinct at all times.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yeah. Oh my god, I love that so much. Thank you for sharing that process.

RAIN: Yeah. Get yourself a dump box. It’s so good.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, I want to ask you two final things. One is nipple hair.

RAIN: Yeah, let’s talk about nipple hair.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Because this is something that I have dealt with since I can remember and I’ve never had anybody mention it before. But you mentioned it before we started recording. So, can you tell me about your journey with nipple hair?

RAIN: Yeah, for sure. So, I am a person who’s surprisingly smooth in surprising areas. My thighs are naturally smooth. There’s nothing going on there. But my lower legs, they can be knitted, I think.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: I got the armpit hair and I got the thick eyebrows and even my eyelashes are double eye lashed. It always looks like I’m wearing fake eyelashes, but I’m not. But I do have nipple hair and I also have a small happy trail, which I think a lot of people have small happy trail. Yeah, it’s interesting. Nipple hair never got in my way so much for my own personal self. I don’t look at it and go, “Ugh.” But I do find that occasionally if you are going to have sex with someone new, you find yourself being like, “Do I pluck these or do I need that?”

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: Because you want somebody to be able to maybe suck on your nipples and if they’re going to do that, you don’t want them to get their braces stuck or whatever is going to happen.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: Now, I don’t have a lot of nipple hair, but I do have quite a bit. And for a moment, I used to pluck my nipple hair, but now I just don’t do it. And when I probably go and do shoots, one of the things I find that’s very interesting is if I’m doing a shoot where I’m topless, they always photoshop and airbrush out my nipple hair.

LEAH: Wow, that’s fascinating.

RAIN: Yeah, it’s a thing.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Even if they leave in hair and armpit hair?

RAIN: Yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: It’s just like this weird thing where it’s nipple hair they’ll specifically take out. And I had one person be like, “Are you sure you’re not intersex?” And I was like, “Why?” They’re like, “Because you have nipple hair. Are you sure you weren’t supposed to have a hairy chest like a guy like have pecs?” And I’m like, “Don’t other people get nipple hair?” And I had to go on this whole Google journey, but it turns out I’m not intersex.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: And also, that’s not a valid way to determine if someone is intersex.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Good point. And I thought that there was something really wrong with me. This is late teens, early 20s, I thought there was something wrong with me that I had nipple hair and I also had to go down that rabbit hole of discovering, “I’m not the only one.” So, thank you for bringing it up.

RAIN: People don’t talk about nipple hair.

LEAH: Yes.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: They don’t, right? I don’t understand why we don’t talk about nipple hair more because it is such a natural thing. And I do feel like it’s hard because you can’t even post your nipples. I just got into not an argument, but a classic debate with somebody who was commenting. I played basketball topless and posted a video on my page with my double D’s playing double defense and they were really upset about it. And we had this whole conversation around whether or not breasts should be seen in public and I asked them what was offensive about the breasts and they were just like, “It’s a food product thing.” So, I was like, “Should we all hide our food products in public?”

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: And he’s like, “No, it’s just that because liquid is in there and there’s a liquid thing.” And I’m like, “So, anyone who sweats should be hidden from public. Anything that leaks, if you’re nose leaks, you should be hidden from public.”

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: And eventually, they came around and they’re like, “Okay, fair.” I just don’t like it. I’m like, “That’s fine.”

LEAH: That’s fair.

RAIN: That’s okay.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: There are going to be things in our life that we don’t like, but I do find that a lot of people probably pluck their nipple hair. They’re worried about perceptions of things. The hairless society thing has always blown my mind, but it’s fine.

LEAH: So, final question. What belief did you have about sex as a child or teenager that you wish you could go back and correct yourself on now?

RAIN: I think that one’s such as easy one. I wish I had realized how much power I have in the dynamics. See, when my parents divorced, I lost a lot of things in my life. And so, with people, I didn’t want to lose people. And so, I’ve dated a lot of people I’m not really interested in, but I just didn’t want to say no or hurt them or let them down. Lying and being like, “No sex before marriage,” I wish I had just known I had a lot more power to just say, “Yeah, I’m just not into that, you,” and just been friends with them. But I’m glad I had the experiences I had because it really helped me understand what I didn’t want in my life. With the star thing now, that one definitely, I wish I had known I had more power, I think.

LEAH: Yeah. Rain, thank you. This has been an incredible conversation.

RAIN: Yeah, it’s been so fun.

LEAH: I’m so grateful that you took the time to talk with me. What do you want people to know about where to find you, what to look you up for, all that stuff?

RAIN: Yeah, you can find me on any platform. Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, the whole jam, under @raindovemodel. And this upcoming year, I’m making a really cool production company with a friend with mine. It’s going to be called Full Steam Productions and hopefully, you’ll see some of our films coming out.

LEAH: Awesome. Something that I love is that you’ve just opened your calendar for people to call you for 15 minutes. That is an incredibly generous way to use your time and your energy.

RAIN: Thank you. It’s a great way to raise money for causes because if you share GoFundMe, people just don’t donate like they used to. So, this is a great opportunity and to connect with people. Right before I talked with you, I just talked with somebody who booked it for their kid. And their kid came on and they’re like, “I don’t know. I’m she/her. I’m they/them. I’m he/him. And I’m a neopronoun and just every day, I change it.” And so, we centered in and I was like, “What are you actually asking for people? Are you asking to be seen as a gender or is there a treatment that you want from people that those genders typically get and maybe changing your language?” Anyway, that’s a whole thing.

LEAH: I love that.

RAIN: Because I was like, “Maybe you’re not asking to be called he/him. Maybe you just want people to tell you the way it is and to not assume that you’re too weak and maybe there’s another way to address that that’s not gender-based.” Anyway, I’ve been having the most amazing conversations and some very anti-Rain Dove people have been on these calls, but it has been wonderful.

LEAH: Not surprised.

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: They’re like, “You say you’ll talk to anyone about anything? I guess we’ll see. I guess we’ll see what you’ll talk about.”

[LAUGHTER]

RAIN: And then, they come on, and then they test me. And then, they’re just like, “Okay, have a nice day.”

[LAUGHTER]

[MUSIC]

LEAH: That’s it for today. If you’re enjoying this show, please take a moment to leave a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or if you’re using another podcast app, go to www.ratethispodcast.com/goodgirls. And remember, there is a treasure trove of audio extras available for free at Patreon. Go to www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex.

While listening to those extras is free, producing this show is not. If my work is meaningful to you and you have a few dollars to support it each month, I will gratefully accept your patronage at Patreon. I donate 10% of all Patreon proceeds to ARC-Southeast, an organization that supports women in the Southeast United States to access reproductive services that are increasingly difficult to obtain. Find out more and become a community member at www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex. Show notes and transcripts for this episode are at www.goodgirlstalk.com. Follow me on Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube @goodgirlstalk for more sex positive content. If you have a question or comment about anything you’ve heard on this show, call and leave a message at 720-GOOD-SEX.

Good Girls Talk About Sex is produced by me, Leah Carey, and edited by Gretchen Kilby. I have additional administrative support from Lara O’Connor and Maria Franco. Transcripts are produced by Jan Acielo. Before we go, I want to remind you that the things you may have heard about your sexuality aren’t true. You are worthy. You are desirable. You are not broken. As your sex and intimacy coach, I will guide you in embracing the sexuality that is innately yours no matter what it looks like. To set up your free discovery call, go to www.leahcarey.com/coaching. Until next time, here’s to your better sex life!

[MUSIC]

Support the show:

All archived Good Girls Talk About Sex audio extras are now available for FREE!  They can be accessed at www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex

I’ve done this because not everyone has the means to pay for access, and I know this additional material can be deeply important for some listeners. But creating this show isn’t free, so if you’d like to support the work I do, I am grateful for your contributions at www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex.

I donate 10% of all Patreon proceeds to ARC Southeast

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Episode credits:

Host / Producer – Leah Carey (email)
Audio Editor – Gretchen Kilby
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Music – Nazar Rybak

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