Dive Deeper with Leah
I have been through the fire and come out the other side. Now I’m here to walk with you as you do the same.
I will help you take a stand for yourself, your desires, and YOUR PLEASURE.
Jessica is one of so many women who have been told, “You have such a pretty face, if you could only lose 50 pounds…”
During her teenage years, she allowed that to define her perception of herself. Then, at the end of high school, she discovered that there were cute clothes that fit her body and she could show off her curves and get attention. And that’s just the beginning of the story!
Jessica is a 38-year-old, cis-gender female who describes herself as white, bisexual, monogamous, and married to a man. She grew up in the United States, has one child, and calls her body curvy and plus size.
LEAH: Welcome to Good Girls Talk About Sex. I am sex educator and sexual communication coach Leah Carey and this is a place to share conversations with all sorts of women about their experience of sexuality. These are unfiltered conversations between adult women talking about sex. If anything about the previous sentence offends you, turn back now! And if you’re looking for a trigger warning, you’re not going to get it from me. I believe that you are stronger than the trauma you have experienced. I have faith in your ability to deal with things that upset you. Sound good? Let’s start the show!
LEAH: Today we’ll meet Jessica, a 38 year old cisgender female who describes herself as white, bisexual, monogamous, and married to a man. She grew up in the United States, has one child, and calls her body curvy and plus size.
As I’ve mentioned before, I chose 42 minutes as an approximate goal for the length of each episode because that’s the length of a standard TV episode when we’re binging, so I’m pretty sure most of us can sustain that level of interest. One of the marvelous problems I have with so many of these conversations is that there’s too much good material for just 42 minutes! That’s how and why Patreon extras developed. There were bits of conversation I didn’t want to lose but I also didn’t have time to include them in the main episode.
And there are episode like today’s where there just isn’t a good way to cut it down and still keep the integrity of the story, so today’s episode is a little bit longer. Jessica is one of so many women who have been told, “You have such a pretty face, if you could only lose 50 pounds.” During her teenage years, she allowed that to define her own perception of herself. Then, at the end of high school, she discovered that there were cute clothes that fit her body and she could show off her curves and get attention. There is so much more to this story. And so, I’m so pleased to introduce Jessica!
I’m so pleased to be talking to you. I love it when listeners let me know that they enjoy the show and want to be on it, so thank you so much for being here today.
JESSICA: Thank you so much for giving us the opportunity to share our stories and to open up about things that are often hidden. You give us a great opportunity to tell our stories.
LEAH: Thank you. I really appreciate that and it is kind of my great joy in life. So it’s a win-win.
LEAH: So let’s jump in. As I ask everybody at the beginning, what is your first memory of sexual pleasure?
JESSICA: I’ve been thinking a lot about this over the past week. And I want to say the first memory I have is being in the bathtub and feeling the water sensation and being like, “Oh, what’s that?” And not really knowing what it meant but just knowing that it felt good, so I continued with that path.
LEAH: Yeah, was it something in particular? Did you get under the faucet?
JESSICA: Yeah. I just happen to come underneath the faucet and it just hit the right way and I was like, “Oh! Oh! What is this? Okay. I don’t know what it is but I really like it and I’m going to keep doing this as long as my parents are not in the room.”
LEAH: Oh, that’s interesting. You know it was something that you didn’t want your parents to know about even if you didn’t know what it was.
JESSICA: Right, I don’t know why. I was probably like 4 or 5 when I first felt that and so it was kind of one of those things were I’m old enough to be in the bathtub by myself with just the occasional check in, but not young enough to where my mom or stepdad were in the bathroom the whole time. So I don’t know, maybe I was told to stop at one point and I just don’t remember that.
LEAH: Did you come into something that you would now think of as an orgasm?
JESSICA: I don’t think so. I think it was one of those things where I just didn’t know to let it continue. I think that’s basically what it was where it was like, “Oh this feels good.” But maybe it got too intense so I stopped.
LEAH: Yeah, sure. I also had my first orgasm under a tub faucet and I was a bunch older because I was probably 10 or 11. I hadn’t started growing pubic hair yet but I knew that it was coming so somehow I had gotten that message. And I thought, “Well if you shampoo the hair on your head, does that mean you’re supposed to shampoo the hair down there too? And if you are, then maybe I should practice.”
LEAH: I have no idea why I thought that.
JESSICA: I mean it makes sense.
LEAH: So yeah, and then so I shampooed hair that was not there yet, and put myself under the faucet to wash it off and I was like, “Oh, well, that’s a thing.”
JESSICA: I do want to say that the bath time water faucet thing continued into my probably tween years. I want to say because our bathroom didn’t have a shower head so I would spend hours in the bathtub. And my dad and step mom would be like, “Would you come out now?” And I’m like, “No, I’m just enjoying my bath.”
JESSICA: So I don’t know, but yeah.
LEAH: And so was there a point in which you translated that pressure from the water, that stimulation from the water to recognizing you could do the same thing with a hand or with a pillow or some other way?
JESSICA: Yes. I was definitely pro-hand. Once I got into those tween years and I started realizing, “Oh, I can read stories.” And I do distinctly remember checking a book out about human sexuality probably when I was about 10.
LEAH: Oh, wow.
JESSICA: Because I was curious. I’ve always been curious about sex. I’ve always been curious about human bodies and so it was one of those things. And I think I might have brought it over to my friend’s house and her mom was like, “Oh, what are you doing with that book?” And she was a family friend and so I don’t know. My mom said she had a conversation with me about if I wanted to know any information, to talk to her about it, but I don’t remember that conversation at all.
JESSICA: So maybe it happened, maybe it didn’t, I don’t know.
LEAH: So what was the conversation that happened in your home around sex? It sounds like you had a step parent and a parent that you were living with, did you see them being affectionate with each other?
JESSICA: My mom had remarried and then my dad was in a long term relationship, I just call her my stepmom. But it was loving on my mom’s side but they weren’t overly affectionate with each other in the house. I knew they had sex but I didn’t want to ever think about it. I always knew where my stepdad’s nudie magazines were. I knew where that box was in the closet so I might have been going in there to check them out and they weren’t home. They were at a baseball game with my little brother. So I knew about masturbation and I was really into that when I was in my early teen, tween years.
LEAH: So you said that you were curious about sex, how did you know that sex was a thing to be curious about?
JESSICA: I don’t necessarily think it was about the sex itself as about feeling good because I knew from the bath tub. It had have to been after learning about puberty and all that stuff in school and they didn’t talk much about beyond girls getting their periods and boys and their voices dropping. The only thing I was shown was the video with the cast of Annie talking about their period.
LEAH: Oh my Gosh!
JESSICA: And how when she got her period, she could no longer be Annie. So that was like my Sex Ed class in elementary school teaching us about our periods.
LEAH: So I talk often about how Sex Ed is not actually about sex, it’s pregnancy prevention and disease prevention and that we get the messages that boys grow up and they get erections and have ejaculations and girls grow up and get their period and suffer. But that adds a whole other later to it of we get our periods and then we can no longer do the fun things at all!
LEAH: It’s terrible!
JESSICA: Isn’t it horrible?
LEAH: It’s horrible!
JESSICA: I mean maybe I’m misremembering what that video was but I distinctly remember her talking about not being able to be Annie anymore when she got her period because she wasn’t a child because you are a woman once you get your period.
LEAH: Right. But even if you are technically misremembering it that is the impression it left you with.
LEAH: And that’s not an impression that we would want to give our girls I wouldn’t think.
JESSICA: Right, yeah. It was bananas so I was like, “Really?” So I think I might have wanted more information because it obviously wasn’t clear enough for me. And so it was a book about body anatomy and what happens once you get older and so obviously, there had to be sexual diagrams in there and all this other stuff, so it wasn’t the Kama Sutra.
JESSICA: And I remember it was a basic green covered book and I don’t know what happened to the book.
LEAH: At what point did you start wanting to move from masturbation or solo sex to having sexual encounters with other people?
JESSICA: I never really had boyfriend-boyfriends, I had a few where in school we might like go and kiss a few times and nothing really happened beyond that because I would always stop it.
Back then I would consider myself really curvaceous, I was really well developed in my chest. And I had hips and everything but I wasn’t super skinny Minnie which was not like the rest of my classmates, so I never really had guys clamoring to be with me so I just kind of flew under the radar.
And then when I was a sophomore, I started hanging out with this one older girl in my class. She called a group of other guys that she knew who came to pick us up and we lied and we said we were going to see Titanic. That tells you how old we are.
JESSICA: And so they picked us up and I kind of knew in the back of my mind, this probably isn’t the best idea. There was like four guys who were in their 20s and me and this other girl who was older. She was probably 17, maybe 18. I can’t remember. But I was definitely a minor.
LEAH: You were at 15?
JESSICA: Yeah. So we ended up going to one of their houses and one of the guys left because he was engaged. And so he left and it was just three guys and me and her. And she went off to the room with the two guys and I was just in the room with one guy. It was in the living room. And I remember I was on my period and I was like, “I don’t really want to do anything because I’m on my period.” So we were just making out.
LEAH: Did you find him attractive?
JESSICA: I found him attractive to an extent. He was kind of like me and kind of there’s always that one person in the group who is kind of the shy person who is also kind of the dowdy. I don’t want to say he was dowdy or that I was dowdy.
JESSICA: I could tell he was interested in me but I don’t know if he was interested in me only because I was the only other person there. So then the next thing I know we’re making out and I go to the bathroom and I take out my stuff and I freshen up and then I lose my virginity to this guy on this white carpet floor.
LEAH: Oh wow.
JESSICA: Yeah. It was like cream carpet and just like the mortification like, “What the heck is happening?” I was into it but also now that I’m older and Iook back and this guy had to have been at least 23, if not 24. That’s really gross.
LEAH: So you went into the bathroom. It sounds like you removed a tampon. If we’re talking about technical consent, it sounds like you technically consented.
LEAH: Do you feel like your choice was one that you made or was it something that you allowed yourself to be talked into?
JESSICA: I don’t know if I felt forced. I’m sure there had to have been something in the back of my mind thinking, “Well, my friend is doing this. I don’t want to be construed as a tease or whatever.”
So I obviously was like into it maybe? But maybe I wasn’t. I don’t know. And I felt like I was in a very bad predicament and I wasn’t exactly sure how to get myself out of it because they drove us there. I didn’t even know really where I was. I just knew that I was just really far away from my house. So it was like had it been a different situation, I could have gotten myself out of there but that was kind of taken away from me.
LEAH: Did you have any pleasure during the interaction?
JESSICA: I don’t know. I’ve kind of felt like, “Oh, this is it? I could be better on my own?”
JESSICA: Oh, okay, meh. So it must have left at very lasting impression on me because I didn’t date anybody. I didn’t have any kind of physical interactions with anybody for at least a year after that so it must have made a really big impression on me.
LEAH: I want to invite you to imagine for a moment what your ideal sex life looks and feels like.
Who are you with?
What type of sex do you have together?
How do you feel while touching them?
How does your body feel when they touch you?
Or … would you like to have LESS sex than you’re currently having?
If you don’t know, or if that vision of your ideal doesn’t look at all like what’s currently going on in your bedroom, I can help.
With personalized sex and intimacy coaching, we’ll explore where you are, where you want to be, and the steps to help you get there. There are no right or wrong answers, just the answers that work FOR YOU.
I understand that exploring your sexuality and all that goes with it – your body image, your belief in your lovability, and more – can be terrifying. Believe me, I sat in the middle of that fire for decades. I know how painful it is. But I also stepped out the other side, stronger, more confident, and more certain of my own lovability and desirability. You can do the same.
I work with couples and one-on-one – whether you’ve never explored your sexual desires before, or you want to explore things you’ve never done before like BDSM or non-monogamy, or if you and your partner need some help figuring out how to communicate together about sex.
I am queer, kinky, and poly friendly.
I want you to have a deeply fulfilling intimate life, and together we can help you get there.
For more information and to schedule your free Discovery Call, visit www.leahcarey.com/coaching. A new client recently said that before her Discovery Call she was extremely nervous, but that I made the experience feel easy and comfortable.
Book your free Discovery Call today at www.leahcarey.com/coaching.
JESSICA: I had always been attracted to females too but I could never put a finger on why or how but it wasn’t until I got older that I was like, “Oh, wait. I actually do enjoy women. I do find myself attracted to women. I do enjoy having sex with women.” I’ve had a handful of girlfriends.
One in particular was a substantial kind of long term thing. I don’t know if she would consider herself bi but when she found a male partner, we ended things. And it was always like, “Yeah, we were girlfriends but we were also like open to seeing guys.” We weren’t exclusive so when she met her now husband things ended and I was completely fine with that.
LEAH: So you mentioned that you as a teenager were curvaceous. What was your relationship like with your body?
JESSICA: I was always told that I have such a pretty face if only I could lose 50 pounds.
LEAH: I’m so sorry.
JESSICA: I was told that by my dad. I was told that by my stepmom. My mom never really said that to me but it was always my dad and my stepmom. And I understood where it was coming from for my dad because he had been a chubby kid growing up and he lost a bunch of weight when he was in high school and then he became popularly and then the story as old as time.
So he would often try to bribe me with money or new clothes and whatnot and so I always kind of dressed dowdy. I always wore bigger pants and bigger sweatshirts and men’s clothes so I wouldn’t show off my body. And it wasn’t until I was a senior in high school that I actually found cute clothes that fit my body and made me feel good. So then I was able to have more form fitting clothes and show off my curves more and I do think that that caused me to get more attention from people because they were like, “Oh, you actually have a body, not just a blob.”
LEAH: And how did your feelings about your body affect the experiences you were having sexually?
JESSICA: I feel like for a specific amount of time, I thought that the only thing that I could offer somebody was my body to make them attracted to me. I obviously was good at what I could do so I would use sex as a way to get attention from men. So I knew that guys liked what they saw and what they experienced once we got together. I knew I could use it as a weapon.
LEAH: You said that was for a defined period of time. What changed?
JESSICA: I met my husband.
JESSICA: So I dated somebody for a very long time and it was off and on. And it was long distance and sometimes it would be short distance and we’d always come together and go apart. And it was not a good relationship. He was a terrible person and he treated me like garbage but because we had such an intense sexual connection, I overlooked so much shit. And I would be like, “But we have such a connection.”
JESSICA: And the sex was good but the way he treated me didn’t correlate so I just stopped. I broke up all contact with this person and I just deleted everything and walked away. It was almost like a giant cleanse and I said, “I’m going to stop dating men who treat me this way.” And then I met my husband days later.
LEAH: Oh, wow. And how old were you?
JESSICA: It was about 10 years ago, almost 10 years to the date. So I was 28 when I met my husband.
LEAH: And so what made your husband different?
JESSICA: He was kind and I don’t know there was just something about him that gave me this calmness and this feeling like, “I don’t have to prove anything to this person. He’s going to like me regardless.” I was able to let down my guard with him. I was able to tell him things that I wouldn’t tell other people, the stuff that had happened before in my past. I didn’t tell him everything but I was able to be open and honest with him without feeling completely judged and I don’t know, when I met him, I was like, “Oh, this is my person.”
LEAH: Yeah. So I want to get back to your husband. But first I want to ask you, what were the things that you thought you would be judged for?
JESSICA: Just how promiscuous I was in my 20s. I slept with a lot of men.
JESSICA: In that time between my high school boyfriend and up until meeting my husband like I said, my ex, we were on and off so long. We were across the country from each other so even though I was monogamous while we were together and he wasn’t. I didn’t find out until pretty recently actually.
When I wasn’t with him, I would just sleep with anybody. I’d like the hunt and I liked the feeling of power it gave me and I don’t know if it’s because I felt so powerless when I lost my virginity? But it was kind of trying to take that power back and so I had a thrill of finding a new guy and breaking him down and getting him to fuck me and that was fun to me.
LEAH: And did those develop into relationships or were they primarily one night stands or short term things?
JESSICA: A lot of them were short term. I had a longer term. He liked to think of me as his girlfriend but I didn’t think of him as my boyfriend so that went on for about a year and a half but there were a lot of theme that were just one night stands or two night stands.
LEAH: And how did you feel about yourself during that time? There’s the power of actually having the conquest but that’s a limited time feeling because you’d need to go out and get it again. So what were your internal feelings at the time?
JESSICA: Exactly. I got the thrill of the chase and I got the, “Yay, I can do this!” But then in the end, I was, “But oh, I’m so alone” because they would always find another girl to be their girlfriend. I was always the lay but never the girlfriend, right? So it made me very lonely because I didn’t get a chance to actually have a boyfriend or when I did, they treated me like garbage so I obviously was seeking something, but only getting the physical without the emotional attachment to it.
LEAH: And what was your relationship like with your body during this time?
JESSICA: I felt really sexy because I was actually taking power. I knew I could use my body to do some really great things. That felt really good. I felt powerful. I felt good in my body. I would always show off my boobs. And it got attention and I liked it because it was like, “Oh yeah, I like them. Do you like them? Let’s go.”
JESSICA: It was always fun.
LEAH: And were you having pleasure during these encounters?
JESSICA: Most of the time, yes. There were only a handful of times where I was like, “Oh, why did I? This was a disappointment. Why did I choose you? You talked really big game.”
JESSICA: And there were some times where it was like, “Oh, maybe that wasn’t the best decision.” I had a bad habit of dating and sleeping with people I worked with, which was not very smart so if I could go back in time, I probably wouldn’t make those decisions.
LEAH: What about consent? Were you having consensual experiences or were there problematic experiences?
JESSICA: Most of the time it was consensual. I did date somebody who I had been seeing for a long period of time. I want to say about 6 months. We were friends with benefits and so it was also a Dom Sub relationship which made it even more precarious because we also worked together.
LEAH: Whoa, that’s a lot.
JESSICA: So yes.
LEAH: And I assume that you were the Sub in this?
JESSICA: Yes. And so he went away for about a month with very little contact. He just ghosted me and it pissed me off to an extent and so I was like, “Okay, well if you’re going to do this. I’m going to go sleep with somebody else.” And I did and it was somebody who I was working with and I knew he had a big mouth. It was not the smartest idea. Anyway, he found out about it and then he wanted to teach me a lesson and that lesson turned into him sodomizing me while I was tied up without my consent.
LEAH: I’m sorry.
JESSICA: And the worst part was because we had been in this Dom Sub relationship. I thought that him humiliating him and him treating me like this was part of the Dom Sub relationship but it wasn’t. And it took my very good friend to tell me, “No, baby, no. He assaulted you. This was not consensual.”
And there was nothing I could do. Well, there were something I could do but by the time I realized what it was, it had already been 72 hours. I had already taken multiple showers. I couldn’t get a rape kit. I also once again worked with this person. I also knew it would be a he said she said thing. I also knew that all of our business would be out at work and so I didn’t say anything. And I didn’t do anything. And I would have to see him.
We didn’t work in the same department but we would run into each other and he would act like everything was completely fine. And I would just have to act like everything was fine but really I would be anxious and I would have tremors and I would just stare off into space. The job I worked at I had to be very aware of my surroundings and it was a very stressful job to begin with so to have this added layer of my former partner and abuser there made it very hard. So eventually he left which was really great.
LEAH: I just want to stop here for a moment and give a public service announcement because I think there are a lot of people who confuse BDSM or Dom Sub relationships with abuse and the two are not completely interchangeable. A BDSM or Dom Sub relationship is predicated and built on consent.
What you experienced was completely non-consensual. He went out of the bounds of what it sounds like the two of you had negotiated, what you had consented to, and you already know this but I want to say this for other people to hear that. That is assault. That is not a proper Dom Sub relationship and when you read things like 50 Shades of Gray where the Dom says things like, “If you say no, then we will never play again. That’s it. I’m out.” That is an abusive shitty Dom.
That is not what a real proper Dom Sub relationship looks like. You always have the opportunity to say your safe word and have it stop. You always can expect or should expect that any negotiations that you’ve had will be respected and you should never be put in a position as a Sub where you are moving outside of negotiated play within the context of a scene with no conversation about it beforehand. That is just absolutely not okay. So I’m really sorry you went through that.
JESSICA: Yeah. It’s been many years but obviously I don’t talk about it a lot but it’s there. I mean I’ve worked through it a bit in therapy but I’m sure I could probably stand to go back and work on it a little bit more. But I do want to say that 50 Shades of Gray is a complete garbage book and I detest it with every ounce of my being.
LEAH: Yeah. So was that your first experience with Dom Sub or is that just a regular part of your sex life?
JESSICA: I had participated in a little bit of spanking or some tying up but it wasn’t huge. I knew I liked it from the one or two times I’ve played before which is why I opened up to it with this guy. I do enjoy it but I often times feel a little bit triggered so I really have to trust the person I’m with in order to do anything more with that.
LEAH: Sure. And so is that a part of your current relationship with your husband?
JESSICA: Oh God no.
JESSICA: My husband is very docile and he tries but he’s not very dominant, which is okay.
LEAH: Do you miss it?
JESSICA: Sometimes like we talk about it and we fantasize about it and he might spank, but it’s never gone further than that. I think I’ve tied him up more than he has tied me up.
JESSICA: Which is also okay, but he didn’t have a very open conversation about sex with his parents and they didn’t really talk to him about it. I’m only the second person he’s ever been with sexually so he’s great with my body because I kind of just told him every way.
LEAH: So did you teach him?
JESSICA: Yeah, I got to teach him so I looked at it as, “Oh, all the sex that I had in my 20s made me a really good professor for teaching him how I like sex”, which is great. But I do think that sometimes, especially with a small child, things get a little put on the back burner.
LEAH: Sure. What is your sex life like now?
JESSICA: Right now we’re in that, “Oh, we have to hurry. We only have so much time. We both need release. Let’s go.” We will go to a hotel and check into a hotel and spend the night together and it might not necessarily be PIV intercourse but we do have intimacy and we do make sure that each other feels wanted. But I think right now we’re in that doldrums of having a small child stuff and I would like to expand and branch out and break out of our monotonous sexual relationship.
LEAH: And how old is your child?
JESSICA: He is 5.
LEAH: And so it’s not that your libido is low, it sounds like your time and your opportunity is low.
JESSICA: Yes. Our time and our opportunity are low. Also, I have a parent living with us so we’re definitely in that sandwich generation and having a parent and then also a small child in your house.
LEAH: That’s a lot.
JESSICA: It’s a lot and it also makes for really opportune times to do things and to be intimate with your partner.
LEAH: How often do you and your husband get to have some type of alone type intimacy?
JESSICA: About once a week, once every couple weeks. It depends. It really depends on, is my mom going to bed at a normal time? Is my son not waking up in the middle of the night? So when we can get to it, we’ll get to it but there have been times where we’ve gone a couple months In between having sex because between me getting my period or I also lost a parent so I’ve been dealing with grief with that.
Last year was a very dry year because I was dealing with my grief and I just didn’t want to be touched sexually. I wanted to be touched but I didn’t want to have anything to do with sex because I just couldn’t handle it emotionally until I got so frustrated that I just needed the release.
LEAH: And was your husband understanding of all of that?
JESSICA: He was. He understood. I knew it sucked for him like I would try to be intimate in other ways like I would give him a hand job or a blow job. But I just didn’t want any touching for me, so it was really hard last year. But this year, we’ve gotten back in the swing of things and I would still like to get more in there, more time, more alone time.
LEAH: Hey friends!
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LEAH: What do you consider to be the kinkiest thing you enjoy?
JESSICA: I really enjoy pegging. I’m not going to lie. I enjoyed that act. I enjoyed that time I spent doing that but that is over now.
LEAH: So for people who aren’t familiar with the term, what do you mean by pegging?
JESSICA: I don’t know how you put that.
LEAH: So it’s generally when a man wants to receive anal play. And in your case, a woman would probably put on a strap on and simulate, not simulate, actually do that.
JESSICA: Yes. That’s right. So yeah, that was actually very enjoyable.
LEAH: Is there something that you fantasize about but have never asked for in real life?
JESSICA: Probably cuckolding?
LEAH: Oh, okay. Again, for people who aren’t familiar, what does that mean?
JESSICA: It means that there is generally a person who is having sex with somebody’s partner knowingly or sometimes unknowingly where they walk in, but also more than that, it’s the humiliation part of it for the male partner.
LEAH: So you’d be interested in doing the cuckolding rather than being the cuckold, meaning that you would be having sex with another person and he would walk in or watch?
LEAH: What about that turns you on?
JESSICA: Probably that power dynamic again and like I said, the humiliation part. I don’t think I’d ever act on it because I know that’s not something that my partner would like but that’s definitely like one of my big fantasies.
LEAH: That’s interesting. I have recently discovered that I am very open to the idea of watching my partner engage with another person but I don’t think that I feel super comfortable with the idea of him watching me with another person. Potentially him watching me with another female might be okay, but him watching me with another male, I don’t think either of us would be into that.
JESSICA: Yeah, like I said, on paper, it sounds great.
JESSICA: But I know for a fact I don’t want to be the cuckold because I am insanely jealous and I don’t like to share. But in fantasy land, all things go.
LEAH: Yeah, and as I often say, it is perfectly okay to have fantasies that are not meant to be lived out in real life.
LEAH: That is really, really common. Well thank you so much Jessica. This has been really delightful. I really enjoyed talking to you.
JESSICA: I really enjoyed talking to you too, Leah. Thank you so much for having me on.
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