Dive Deeper with Leah Carey
I have been through the fire and come out the other side. Now I’m here to walk with you as you do the same.
I will help you take a stand for yourself, your desires, and YOUR PLEASURE.
Growing up in a conservative church, some kids don’t even know being gay is an option. Add that to an ill-kept family secret, and Olivia became scared to orgasm as an adult. She shares how she went from Googling “naked bodies” to discovering assault survivor resources, and why she’s now exploring polyamorous dating.
Olivia is a 24-year-old cisgender female. She describes herself as mixed race with both African and Middle Eastern heritage, and she’s gay with an asterisk. She grew up in an evangelical Christian home. She is currently dating and exploring non-monogamy. She describes her figure as an ‘hourglass with extra minutes.’
LEAH: Welcome to Good Girls Talk About Sex. I am sex and intimacy coach, Leah Carey, and this is a place to share conversations with all sorts of women about their experience of sexuality. These are unfiltered conversations between adult women talking about sex. If anything about the previous sentence offends you, turn back now! And if you’re looking for a trigger warning, you’re not going to get it from me. I believe that you are stronger than the trauma you have experienced. I have faith in your ability to deal with things that upset you. Sound good? Let’s start the show!
LEAH: Hey, friends. Today, we have an interview with Olivia. Now, you probably have noticed I almost never share what guests do for a living unless it’s directly pertinent to the story they’re telling. But in this case, Olivia put her career front and center when she submitted herself to be a guest.
She works in social services. So, not only would she need to use a fake name, she’d also need to have her voice altered so as to not adversely affect her career. While some people use their real first name for these interviews, about half use fake first names. I usually don’t identify which is which because again, it makes no material difference to the interview or the episode if their name is real or not. The point is the content, not the particulars.
But we live in a culture that is so sex negative that many people who work in professions for the public good have to refrain from saying anything that would cause anyone to think about sex. For instance, nobody is going to ask a heterosexual teacher to not mention their spouse because that’s considered “normal.” But gay teachers in Florida are now required to never mention their spouse because it will cause students and adults to consider what they do in their own bedroom.
So, someone in a social services position like Olivia can’t talk about sex at all for fear of losing her job and jeopardizing her future, which is why we’ve altered her voice so she can have this conversation. As you can imagine, this is beyond frustrating to me because I believe with every fiber of my being that these conversations are exactly what is needed to demystify and de-shamify sexuality. And that would ultimately lead to less abuse and trauma.
But for now, I’ll keep doing what I can to get the word out to as many people as possible. And sometimes, that means taking extra precautions. So, let’s get to today’s interview. Olivia is a 24-year-old cisgender female. She describes herself as mixed race with both African and Middle Eastern heritage and she’s gay with an asterisk. She grew up in an evangelical Christian home and she said she is currently dating and exploring non-monogamy and her figure is an hourglass with extra minutes. I’m so pleased to introduce Olivia!
Olivia, I am so pleased to have you here. You reached out to me recently to say that you had found the podcast and wanted to do an interview, which as long-time listeners know, is my favorite thing in the world. So, thank you for being here.
OLIVIA: Yeah. Thank you for having me.
LEAH: Yeah. So, we start every interview the same place. What is your first memory of sexual pleasure?
OLIVIA: It’s an interesting question because I know the age or so that it happened is different than the age that I knew what it was. So, I would say the first memory was probably somewhere between seven and nine. I probably didn’t know what was going on though until mid-high school. So, it was a big gap.
LEAH: Sure. What was the feeling that you were having in the age seven to nine?
OLIVIA: I honestly don’t remember how I figured this out, but basically, I learned that I if squeeze my legs really hard in a certain position, it feels really good. And then, I also learned how to do it discreetly so I could do it anywhere and everywhere and nobody knew.
OLIVIA: There wasn’t a shame factor because nobody knew what I was doing. But I also knew it was probably not something you go shouting to the rooftops about.
LEAH: Okay. And were you coming to something you would now call an orgasm?
OLIVIA: No. I would say that it was intense arousal.
LEAH: Did you have a sense that it was leading somewhere or was the arousal enough?
OLIVIA: It was enough because that’s all I knew. I should preface. I’m an only child. So, I have no other siblings to explore topics with. So, I honestly did not know that you have the ability to be pleasured. I figured that was just for going to the bathroom. That was it, yeah.
LEAH: Sure. So, you said that sometime in high school-ish, you figured out what was going on. What was that experience? How did you figure it out?
OLIVIA: So, up until that point, probably middle school, I didn’t know what masturbation was. I had no clue how it worked. A friend of mine said, and we were raised in the church, so she told me she was struggling with it and she had this addiction that she needed to stop. And I asked her what it was and she said it was masturbating. I said, “Okay. It’s like, how do you do it? I don’t really know what that is.” And she shamefully said she just rubs. And I’m over here like, rubs what?” I’m like, “Okay. And this is bad, why?”
OLIVIA: I had no concept whatsoever. So, in high school, when the hormones pretty much kicked in full throttle, I was talking with friends that did have a whole lot more experience. So, I was asking them like, “What’s an orgasm? How do you know you get that? I know I’m not getting that, so what is this thing I’m getting?” So, they did explain that arousal is like a precursor. I figured out around nine or ten what I know now I was looking at porn, which I had no clue what that was either. I just knew that it helped when I was squeezing my legs hard.
LEAH: Fascinating. I have so many questions. So, where were you coming across porn and what kind of porn were you looking at?
OLIVIA: I went straight to Google images. There was nothing discreet about it.
OLIVIA: I think it started out as honest just wondering what bodies look like. It also didn’t occur to me to look in the mirror at myself. So, I just went to Google, and then, of course, I didn’t know what I was looking up when I put in “naked bodies,” which gave me a whole lot more than I was expecting. So, I was scarred for a little bit.
OLIVIA: And then, decided to explore that more too. So, it started off with Google, and then, of course, if you click on pictures, it takes you to a link to another type of website. So, I found other platforms to basically find pornographic material. And then, I discovered it’s also on YouTube and they do videos. So, I did that for a while.
LEAH: Yeah. And what kinds of porn were you looking at? What kinds of bodies? What kinds of activities?
OLIVIA: So, I would say honestly, it was usually peers, kids around my age that it was. So, it wasn’t specifically porn what I was looking at. I was looking up videos of people going around dancing with each other and you just happen to see their body during that. So, it was that.
Yeah, so I didn’t really start looking at what you would call porn until later in high school. I knew what Pornhub was back then because people would mention it, but I also knew that your parents could find what you’re looking at in your browser so I avoided that until I learned how to go incognito mode, and then it was good.
LEAH: And then the world opens.
OLIVIA: Yeah. I went to college and figured I don’t need incognito. It’s not my internet.
LEAH: So, you mentioned before we started recording that you grew up in the church. What kinds of messages were you getting around sex and masturbation and being female in general?
OLIVIA: Nothing was very direct about the topic other than abstinence and don’t touch yourself. It was pretty much it.
LEAH: So, don’t touch yourself was clearly stated, yeah?
OLIVIA: Yeah. Masturbation was not something you do. It’s all clear with gambling and adultery pretty much. So, that wasn’t a struggle for me because I didn’t even know how to do it. So, that wasn’t on my list of sins. I picked out my other ones.
LEAH: Because you were doing it, but you didn’t know that that’s what you were doing because using your legs to create that kind of pressure is masturbation, but it doesn’t fall into that very specific category of hand on clit. Yeah.
OLIVIA: Yeah. I never got the accidental rubbing on a pillow. I’ve heard a lot of people got that. I was not so lucky.
OLIVIA: So, yeah, I think mine was more indirect and we’re not really taught anything about sexual nature in that way. We were just told not to do it. We’re not told that there are different platforms and ways to go about it. So, we’re probably sinning, but we had no idea. We didn’t know to look out for that.
LEAH: Yeah. At what point did you have an orgasm? Do you remember?
OLIVIA: Almost 17. It was my first partner, also first time doing anything and everything physical or sexual. So, first kiss, cuddling, had never done that either. Really everything. So, it was actually the first time we were having sex and I was receiving. So, my body was just like, what the hell? Okay.
OLIVIA: I didn’t know anything about orgasms either as far as when you know it’s approaching. So, I thought I had to pee really bad. So, we were talking about it and I was like, “Yeah, I’m pretty sure I need to go use the bathroom now.” And my partner goes, “That’s not what that was.”
LEAH: So, you said this was your first partner and your first experience. Was this your first time making out and it led to sex? It was? So, everything happened all at once?
OLIVIA: It was gradual with the partner. So, the first kiss was normal. We were outside so we didn’t go at it. But yeah, it was first kiss, and then it was subsequent dates and hangouts after that led up towards sex. I wanted to have sex, but they actually would not let me because they knew I wasn’t ready yet. Because when they asked, “Are you ready?” I said, “I think so.” And they said, “What do you mean you think?” And I said, “I’ve never done this, so let’s go.”
OLIVIA: And they said, “If you have to think that hard, you’re probably not ready yet, so we’re not going to do it,” which I’m very appreciative of now.
LEAH: Yeah. How long did it take between when you said you were ready and when you actually did it?
OLIVIA: Within a week.
OLIVIA: Yeah. I should preface the whole relationship was pretty short too, but yeah, we did go from zero to 100 pretty rapidly.
LEAH: Yeah. So, you’re using the pronoun they. So, I want to find out, was this a person with a penis or a person with a vagina?
OLIVIA: A person with a vagina.
LEAH: Okay. And so, what kind of sex were you having with them?
OLIVIA: Also an interesting question. So, when I was receiving, it was digitally. I was terrified of receiving oral because again, I had no reference and we also weren’t together very long so there wasn’t really time to explore much. There wasn’t the entering or arousing anything. I think the first time I attempted oral, I honestly was literally just kissing their vagina. That was about it because I still had no clue what I was doing.
LEAH: That’s still oral.
OLIVIA: It took me a long time to figure it out.
OLIVIA: I was also intimidated because I had never done anything sexual, never had my face that close to anybody else’s genitals and it was hard to. I would say most of the porn that I did watch was straight porn so obviously, there’s a difference there. Yeah, so it was, “Okay, you need to really tell me what to do.”
LEAH: Yeah. So, have you primarily been with people who have vaginas?
LEAH: Exclusively? Have you been with anybody with a penis?
OLIVIA: So, I also have a bit of a history of sexual abuse. So, my horrible idea back then was to get over my fear of penises themselves. So, I took to the app, Yik Yak. I don’t know if you remember that one. It’s been quite a while ago. It’s an anonymous one and you just post all sorts of ridiculous stuff. It was usually in college towns, so there was anything to, “Who has science class in this building?” to “I’m bored” or “Who has a book I can borrow?”
So, I went on that and I put out an ad for myself that I was looking for someone with a penis that would let me play with it without having sex. So, I got a lot of people that were signing up for that one. And I weeded them out, found a guy that seemed decent, that wasn’t just in it for sex or going to pressure me into anything. It was fine.
And then, I did actually have intercourse with a friend. Also, he has a penis. I picked him out on purpose for a couple of reasons. One, I was trying to set up a threesome with this random couple from Tinder and the female was extremely attractive and he was involved. Their ground rules was he’s going to be involved too and I didn’t want a complete stranger to be the first one to have intercourse with me. So, I found a friend and this friend also happens to be very small. So, I picked him on purpose because I did not want to end up in the ER over that.
LEAH: I love how pragmatic you are. This is amazing.
OLIVIA: Yes. It was very planned. I call it a business transaction.
LEAH: I want to go back to the first one where you said, “I want to find someone with a penis who I can touch it and look at it and play with it, but it doesn’t have to result in sex.” That is fucking brilliant. I didn’t know that I could do that until I was in my 40s and even then, it felt like a really scary thing to do. So, I really want to appreciate you for figuring that out when you were in college. Can you tell me a little bit more about that experience? What was it like to touch and look at and was there any pressure to go towards any type of sex?
OLIVIA: Sure. So, when he and I were just talking about why I was looking for what I was looking for, he did also disclose that he had a girlfriend, so I was like, “Uh-oh. I’m not trying to get in trouble.” But his girlfriend knew full well. So, that was actually also like a planned threesome.
It turned out just to be him and I. She ended up not really being into it, which was fine. I should also preface and say I was drunk. And then, they got into my level of drunkenness. So, it was pretty messy, I would say. But when I was exploring his penis, it started off with me poking it.
OLIVIA: It was also in the dark. So, I was like, “Okay, you’re going to have to help me out. I can’t see much at the moment.” So, it did start out with me just running my fingers over it or feeling the skin and what texture it was. I think he asked me if I wanted to try doing a hand job and I said, “Sure. How do you do that?” So, he did tell me. And at one point, mind you, we were not using lube, so I don’t think it felt very good for him. And I said, “Okay.”
I was like, “I know that’s a way that you get a penis hard.” I said, “You are the first person I’ve ever been around that has a penis. So, you’re going to need to tell me when it’s hard because I don’t know if I’m going to know.” And, of course, from watching porn, I thought it was going to basically be from zero to quick stand, so it was not. So, I was actually a little bit disappointed.
OLIVIA: Again, it was pretty much just me touching it with my hands. I did actually try a blow job, which was terrible. It is what it was. Nothing really happened from it and when I was done, I was like, “All right, cool.”
LEAH: Did you get drunk that night because you were about to touch a penis or did that just happen to all coincide?
OLIVIA: Yeah. It actually wasn’t planned. It happened with alcohol involved. It was just hanging out in the dorms. Most everybody else I hung out with, they were either away for sports or they had gone away with their families, so I was just bored. So, I figured might as well just get drunk and hang out in my room. And then, that’s when he messaged me like, “Hey, are you busy tonight?” I was like, “No.” He’s like, “You want to get together?” And I said, “Yes, that’s cool. You’re going to have to pick me up because I can’t walk straight already.”
OLIVIA: So, they did. And then, they realized I was pretty drunk and having a nice time. So, we stopped at the store so they could also get drunk to where I was at and it just went from there.
LEAH: I see. Did it occur to you that you might want to wait until you were sober or did it just feel like that was the right time?
OLIVIA: Yeah. It did not occur. It just sounded like fun.
LEAH: Are you aching to explore new vistas of your sexuality? Do you hear me talk about concepts on this show and think, “It makes sense, but I need help applying it to my particular situation?” That’s where personalized sex and intimacy coaching comes in.
When you work with me, I promise to help you feel safe exploring your sexuality. Together, we’ll look at your needs and desires without judgment and help you figure out how to fulfill them. There is no single answer that’s right for everyone. So, I’m going to help you discover what’s right for you and we’ll go at your pace. That’s the pace that respects your emotional needs, your boundaries, and your nervous system because going too fast can send you into shutdown while going too slow can be infuriating and exhausting. The goal is to find what’s right for you.
I work with clients who are motivated to explore many different areas of sexuality including things like expressing your sexual desires to current or future partners, exploring if you might be queer, challenging body image insecurity in sexual relationships, dipping your toes into BDSM, exploring consensual non-monogamy, learning to date after a long time out of the dating pool, exploring your sexuality for later in life virgins, and so much more. I want you to have a deeply fulfilling intimate life and together, we can help you get there. For more information and to schedule your discovery call, visit www.leahcarey.com/coaching. That’s www.leahcarey.com/coaching.
LEAH: You’ve referred a couple of times to the fact that you are abused. Do you want to talk about that?
LEAH: Okay. I’ll just open the door and leave it for you to figure out what you want to talk about. What happened?
OLIVIA: Yeah. So, I was very little. I was about three and a half. And it’s a complicated thing for me because it was a family member. However, it was a cousin. So, we were both minors. We had a large age gap though. He was about 9.
So. there’s a lot of back and forth between did he know what he was doing? Did he not? It wasn’t mutual. I could tell you that. So, it was more of just I knew at the time that this was not a normal everyday activity. You don’t hang out with people in that way.
So, I didn’t actually tell my parents right away after the incident occurred and ended because I was three. So, I had nothing to hide. I just blurted out what was going on and my mom and my aunt were there when I told my mom what happened. So, now they’re freaking out internally.
So, my aunt took my cousin on a walk to figure out what happened and talked to him about why you don’t do that and I think my mom was having me retell her so she could make sure she heard me correctly. And then, she told me not to worry about it, that her and my dad will take care of it and that was that. I didn’t really have anything else to do with it. There weren’t talks about it. They said they were going to handle it, so I just let it be.
And then knowing now, there wasn’t really much done about it. My cousin’s mom was made aware. His parents were divorced, so they think he might have been around sexual activity when he was at his dad’s. That was honestly it. We were never kept apart at family gatherings. We didn’t avoid family things for a while. I still remember playing with him once in a while, not often, just because he was an older boy and he was probably off doing boy things and I was young and I was off to go hang out in the woods or whatever.
So, there really wasn’t anything done about it and I did not know that I was sexually abused until I was 15. I always had the flashback and it was always something that didn’t seem quite right. And it was about 15 when I started getting social media accounts and there were a lot of people that were posting honestly about their mental health or their sexual abuse and relationships and all of that.
So, one day, I did ask one of my online friends. I said, “Hey, I don’t know if this is something bad, but can I tell you what it is?” She said, “Sure.” So, I told her the memory that I had, and then she started freaking out and said, “What do you mean? That’s bad. That’s not supposed to happen and no, it’s not normal.”
So, now I was freaking out. So, it was a shock of realizing that it happened to me and also, I had no idea until now. So, when I did bring it up to my parents, it came out in an emergency family session, so they had no idea that I remembered and they were not ever planning to tell me.
Neither my cousin nor I got any help right after. Neither of us had any sort of therapy. I want to say it was probably about freshman year of college when I reached out to him and actually brought it up to him. I told him that I remembered this thing that happened years ago. I wasn’t mad at him because we were both kids, but I was trying to just remember because I only had a snippet and I knew there was probably more. So, I was wondering if he had any memory to give me context. So, we swapped each other’s memories. Both of us had very little amount that we remembered.
LEAH: But he was willing to have that conversation with you?
OLIVIA: He was, yeah. He did express remorse. He said that he was also trying for years to remember why and how and just the full event itself as well. And he ended up telling me too. He used to have a neighbor that was somewhat in the psychology field. I don’t know if they were at their best.
And he had asked him, “What’s wrong with me for doing that?” And the therapist at the time told him that, “You’re fine. Kids do it all the time. You’re normal.” Nobody knew the context. So, he just had to deal with that on his own growing up. So, neither of us got help.
LEAH: Yeah. So, I just want to interject here and, first of all, I want to say I am not a therapist. So, you can take everything I say with a grain of salt. The general rule that I have learned that feels right in my bones is that kids play. They play doctor. They play I’ll show you mine if you show me yours and if that happens within an age gap of about two to three years, that’s okay.
Once you get above three years, then you’re talking about a really significant power imbalance and there’s a child who’s taking advantage of another child. So, whether or not your cousin knew that what he was doing was strictly wrong, there was a power imbalance. And that’s not okay.
Also, you said that you don’t know what he was seeing at his father’s home. It’s not unusual. It’s extremely not unusual that when a child is exhibiting sexual behavior, it is often because they have been sexualized in some way that is inappropriate to their age.
So, whether that means they’ve just seen some sex they weren’t prepared for, they’ve seen porn that they weren’t prepared for or they themselves were abused, there is often some kind of sexualization of the perpetrator that when they go out then and do this to another child, I don’t want to make it sound okay because it’s not, and at the same time, it’s like them trying to figure out for themselves, trying to process what they’ve experienced that was not okay.
That’s why I think it’s so important for all of us to be talking more about childhood sexuality and childhood abuse because this shit happens because we’re not talking about it and therefore, kids aren’t getting help for what they’ve experienced. If we could break that cycle, we might have fewer kids experiencing this.
OLIVIA: Yeah. And talking with my parents as well, they also shared that back when that did happen, one, they didn’t know what to do about it. They had never really heard of a kid that young experiencing that and I don’t know who they sought advice from, but that meant they got bad advice. They were doing the best they could at the time.
The advice that they got was that if I never brought it up again, I was fine, which we know is not true. And actually, looking back, there were various signs right around when it happened that would alert people now or anyone that’s gone through sexual trauma training. There was a regression in bathrooming until I was probably 9. Yeah, and that was a big thing.
LEAH: For people who don’t know what that means, can you explain what a regression in bathrooming means?
OLIVIA: Yeah. So, I think I was pretty much fully potty trained when it occurred. And then, after that, I had a lot of accidents. I think I got a UTI a few times just from holding it so long and creating problems. Yeah, I ended up in the ER at least once for that.
Yeah, there was actually at one point, of course, my parents were super frustrated, so they didn’t know there was anything underlying it. It was just like, “Hey, you’re 7. You just need to use the bathroom like a normal kid. What are you doing?” So, there was actually at one point too I think I was about 6 or 7 where I just went to wearing clothes for a little bit until “I got myself together.” So, yeah, that was a big issue for a while.
LEAH: I have this question that I really want to ask and I’m struggling whether it’s an appropriate question or not.
OLIVIA: Go for it.
LEAH: I’m going to ask and you can choose to not answer it. Okay. Do you at this point in your life now as an adult have any inclination toward diaper play or any sort of age play like that?
OLIVIA: Not for diaper play. I have thought about and I’ve been a little bit curious about age play. It ties in with just growing up even not learning anything about sexuality. So, what I’m more curious about is the older adults seducing younger innocent persons.
OLIVIA: So, yeah, I don’t know if that’s fully sexual or it’s not diaper play, it’s not diaper clothes. But yeah, it’s that type of power dynamic.
LEAH: So, the baby girl daddy dom kind of thing? Although maybe in your case, it wouldn’t be a daddy dom, it would be maybe a mommy dom.
OLIVIA: Yeah. And the more subtle I guess you could describe this as the grooming behavior. It’s going through that.
LEAH: So, exploring that as a consensual kink.
LEAH: Yeah. Is that something you’ve ever brought up with your partners?
OLIVIA: No because for a while, I felt like it was something wrong with me and I didn’t know that was a kink. So, I’ve kept it to myself. I have brought it up as far as if I’m talking with partners about various things we like or we want to try. I have brought it up.
It’s not something that I’m in dire need of checking it out now. So, I have not explored it with anyone. There are other people too that are also very gung-ho about it, which I didn’t take personally. So, I just haven’t done anything out of it.
LEAH: Yeah. So, I would say that there’s nothing wrong with you for being interested in that. I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s a common kink, but it is not an unnatural or uncommon kink. There is an entire community of people who play in the baby girl daddy dom and you change those genders.
LEAH: That just happens to be the one that has the initials that go with it that are common. But also, if you do choose to want to pursue that, I would highly suggest that you find someone who has experience with it. So, go to a kink website. Go to FetLife and specifically seek out someone who already plays in that area so that you are not trying to explore your kink while also wandering around in the desert with someone else who doesn’t know what they’re doing.
LEAH: Because that could end up having some unforeseen consequences.
OLIVIA Yeah, for sure.
LEAH: You mentioned when we first started that you were gay with an asterisk. I would love to know what that means.
OLIVIA: All right. So, I would say I grew up straight because that was the only option I knew about. I also was raised in the conversative Christian environment. So, if there was anything remotely liberal, it was wrong, it was disgusting, abomination, all the great disruptors that we get taught. That was very conservative. I would say I was a prude until I hit college.
OLIVIA: So, I also thought it was nasty. At the time, I thought anything PDA was gross. I did not want to see anybody holding hands. If they’re kissing, let me just run back out the room. I didn’t want to see it with anybody, but it was especially gross if it was the same sex couple. I also did not know that lesbians existed. I thought it was just a man thing. Yeah, so I had no idea that there was this whole other world and spectrum of sexuality. So, I really learned a lot in high school because there is Google.
OLIVIA: Getting social media accounts and just meeting various people and I had a friend that said that they had a crush on a girl and they were also a girl. I ended up figuring out or starting to figure out that I also had attractions to females right around about being 15. I started noticing other girls at school differently than just being pretty or popular. I was really studying their features. I thought they were just very gorgeous. I didn’t always look at that and I didn’t care.
OLIVIA: So, that was a telltale sign. And then, I realized what was going on. It was a big denial and it was also another what is wrong with me? Please don’t make this be my fate type of thing. Because I was very active in going to church, so I didn’t want to become one of “those.” I was in denial.
I started self-teaching about the LGBT culture and really anything that was different from being raised in a conversative Christian environment and I started learning about it and I had no clue what transgender was. I learned about that. It was very fascinating medically and just learning that there are options of living and that they’re also valid and there’s a lot of people that do them. It’s not something specific to just a small population. So, I did start getting a bit more comfortable with the idea of liking females and exploring what that means. I went through the clothing exploration, but I also did settle.
LEAH: What does that mean, the clothing exploration?
OLIVIA: Looking more masculine than feminine. So, I bought a pair of I think boxer briefs and at the time, my mom still did my laundry. She didn’t trust me to not break the washer.
OLIVIA: So, she saw a neon orange pair of boxers and my dad just wears the generic colors like that would not have been his pair. So, my mom’s like, “Are these yours?” And I said, “Yeah.” And she said, “Why are you wearing these?” And I was on the soccer team. I said, “They’re cheaper than spandex.”
So, I kept it discreet that way, but I would wear them all the time and I think she figured out because I bought a few more pairs after that and they weren’t the boxer brief. They were different. So, I’m pretty sure my mom picked up on that quite easily and early. She didn’t say anything. She just let me do my thing, but I was exploring more over the internet and virtually. So, I did learn how to sext and figured out that I liked it. So, I did that constantly. But yeah, I never did anything physically or in person with anyone until I got to college.
LEAH: So, when you were sexting, was that primarily with women or also with men?
OLIVIA: It was primarily with women. It was with men a couple times. I just found it boring. So, I stopped doing that.
LEAH: That is fair.
OLIVIA: Yeah. So, I did it more with women.
LEAH: Yeah. And with the clothing exploration, were you also exploring your gender or were you exploring your clothing expression separate from your gender?
OLIVIA: It started as just the clothes. I ended up talking through therapy was it came to a point where when I got overwhelmed, the way that my coping skills worked is I would dress more masculine when I wasn’t doing well mentally so that I could appear as somebody different and just escape myself. Yeah, so there was the element that was just trying it out, trying to see what style that I wanted to portray, but there was also the mental health and coping portion.
LEAH: So, where have you landed now?
OLIVIA: I still dabble between feminine, masculine, anything in between as far as esthetics. I wouldn’t say that I do it as a coping mechanism. Now, it’s more just comfort or I just feel like wearing this today or this is a nice day to wear a dress, which I usually don’t.
OLIVIA: Yeah. So, it’s gone away from that.
LEAH: Do you feel settled in your gender? Do you feel comfortable using she/her and being perceived as female?
OLIVIA: Yes. I haven’t really had any wavering with my gender. I’ve always seemed pretty set in it and comfortable in it. And even when I started learning that transgender was a thing that existed, it was more just a curiosity because I didn’t know what it was and nobody in the Christian world talks about that positively. So, I wanted to know for myself what it all was about.
LEAH: Yeah. So, what is your relationship with your parents like now that you call yourself gay?
OLIVIA: It’s better now than it was at first. I came out to them at 18 when I was with my first partner because I got really tired of sneaking around and lying about where I was and that they did call in the middle of sex a couple times.
OLIVIA: Yeah. But I got sick of just going around lying about pretty much everything about me. So, I figured if I am sinning or if I am living the wrong lifestyle, I’d rather just be honest about it and just let them know like, “Hey, this is what I’m doing.”
So, I did. I came out to them because I was dating someone. And mind you, I didn’t date anyone before that either. So, it was first partner, first gay partner. It was all just everything at once. So, my parents didn’t have any previous experience with me in the dating pool and that was their first experience. So, it was a shock.
I don’t think my mom was shocked necessarily that I had those feelings, but I think she was shocked for the timing that I told her. She was visiting me at college and we were in one of the cafeteria areas just having lunch or whatever and I snuck it in the conversation.
OLIVIA: So, she got caught off guard and doubled back and like, “Wait a minute. What did you just say?” And I did that on purpose in case she reacted badly, there were people around me for witnesses.
OLIVIA: Yeah. She just had a lot of questions. She just wanted to understand how I was figuring this out, why, all the mom questions. And then, also I ended up saying that I was seeing someone and that’s why I wanted her to know.
So, after she got her questions answered, then we had to brainstorm how do we tell dad. He’s much more conversative, much more outspoken and opinionated. So, we knew it was not going to go well. So, we were trying to come up with a plan of how and when to break the news to him. My mom ended up telling him, which I’m grateful for because I heard how the reaction was and it’s probably better that I wasn’t there to see it. He was completely heartbroken. I think he was also pissed.
OLIVIA: Yeah. So, I didn’t talk to my dad really for the rest of that week. I didn’t want to. I was scared to. And when I did finally reach out, he was just very sad. He was heartbroken about it. All of his dreams that he had as a father seemed to go away for him. And the religious aspect, he also was now terrified that I was going to go to hell.
LEAH: And is that still an issue for him?
OLIVIA: Yes. I would say it’s not as intense. He’s never going to be a supporter, which I understand it. I’m not excepting that out of either my parents really. He’s tolerant. He can be a very sore subject. He’s one of those people where out of sight, out of mind. So, if we’re not actively talking about it, I’m not gay at the moment.
LEAH: It’s not ideal, but if you’re okay with that because it preserves your relationship, then okay.
OLIVIA: Yeah. I don’t know if I would say I’m okay with it. I am getting to a point now where it is very exhausting to just not bring it up or to continue to lie about what I’m doing or who I’m hanging out with. He’ll ask, “What are you up to?” And I’ll say, “I’m hanging out with this friend.” And I did try to keep it vague, and then they asked questions.
So, at this point, I just tell them and they can deal with the honesty however they please. There is still a lot of back and forth whether I do want to tell them or not because sometimes, it is just nice to be myself without their judgment. So, yeah, that’s still a struggle.
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LEAH: You said that before you have always been monogamous but you’re exploring the idea of opening up or polyamory. So, what does that mean to you? What kinds of explorations are you doing?
OLIVIA: So, I’ve always been very monogamous honestly and generally just didn’t understand how people could have attractions like that with others without it being wrong or cheating. I just couldn’t wrap my brain around it. So, that was not something I was interested in. The only exposure I really had was when people talk about Mormonism, so also not positive conversations.
OLIVIA: I got caught watching Sister Wives and that didn’t go well either.
OLIVIA: Yeah. So, I just didn’t have a lot of exposure. The stuff that I did just wasn’t in good light at all. I never thought that it was something I could handle because I am also a little bit jealous and I have poor self-esteem. So, I didn’t think it was something I could ever be part of in that way.
And then, I started dabbling in it as far as talking to different people who did exercise that. Just asking them how it works with them and their partners, the dynamics, and what it really means to various people.
So, I was beginning to understand that relationships have different purposes. You’re not trying to have five different husbands that all do the same thing. No, there’s variety that you can have and it’s just up to each person and what they’re looking for and how that plays out for them. So, I did start to understand that a bit more and it was intriguing.
Part of it started because I knew that I wasn’t really emotionally strong enough to be in a relationship and have that primary partner and those pressures. So, I started wondering if maybe it would be better because I still craved being around people and having someone to talk to or go on dates with.
So, I started wondering if it would almost be a better idea if I did try to seek out ethical non-monogamy situations. That way, there wasn’t the pressure of me being a primary partner. And there also was not a pressure of having to perform sexually because it was still a very hard thing for me to do.
So, I did think about it. There were some people when I was talking to them about how their dynamic is with their primary partner and I would ask if I could meet them or I could have said, “Hey, I’ve never really done this before. So, can I get verification that your partner knows about me?” So, that happened before where they didn’t. Actually, I did have one person, they were offended by that because they said it was undermining their relationship with their other partner.
LEAH: Yeah. That person should be kicked to the curb.
OLIVIA: Yeah. So, the trust that they and their partner have need to know, so yeah, I didn’t go any further with that person. So, I have been more cautious because I’ve now realized that not everybody is okay with me asking that. But I did finally meet someone that understood that and they do know each other’s partners and have board games and hang out and just normal, it’s fine.
LEAH: So, what you’re describing sounds like kitchen table polyamory if you’re familiar with that term where the basic idea being that everybody could sit down to a meal together. All of the partners of various configurations can sit down.
Don’t ask don’t tell polyamory is absolutely a thing and it absolutely can be a workable thing, but if you ask to be introduced to someone’s other partners and they get offended by that ask, that is not a good match. That is just basic mismatch in the kind of relationship that you’re looking for. So, I’m glad that you didn’t try to take that any further.
OLIVIA: Yeah. And I understand too a lot of people whether you’re looking for something monogamous or non-monogamous or if you’re new to the game, not everybody wants to deal with that. Not everybody wants to be the first experience for someone.
So, I understand that too and that’s partly why I haven’t looked into it too much until recently just because there weren’t too many opportunities or people that seemed to match what I was looking for and what they were looking for until very recently. So, I’m very much enjoying it now.
LEAH: Good, I’m glad. I also wanted to just go back and pick up one other thing you said that while you were curious about polyamory and you ended up watching Sister Wives, polygamy and polyamory, as I can see from your face you know, are not the same thing.
Polygamy, while you might say that the difference is around marriage, that in polygamy, they are “marrying” multiple people. In fact, polygamy says one man can have multiple women, but those women only have that one man. Polyamory is you get to create the relationships that work for you and everybody has the opportunity to make those relationships, not just the men.
OLIVIA: Yeah. I’ve done a lot of educating and I’m being educated by others, which is really nice.
LEAH: And now it’s time for the lowdown, the things we’re dying to know but would usually be too polite to ask any good girl.
LEAH: Do you have sex during your period?
LEAH: What’s the approximate number of sex partners you’ve had?
OLIVIA: This has taken me a while to figure out.
OLIVIA: I knew this question was coming. I would say I think between 10 and 20. I think it’s also relative because I don’t date men mostly, so it depends if partner counts as somebody where sexual experiences were mutual or wasn’t one-sided. If it was one-sided, which side was I on for that? So, I think the number could fluctuate. So, I’m just going to give a general.
LEAH: Sure. That actually brings up a question. How do you define sex?
OLIVIA: Yeah. I don’t know. I think definitely penetration is involved. I don’t think it has to be involved. I think for me, for the majority of it I would say if there are erogenous areas or genital involved, I would call it as sex.
LEAH: Okay, great. So, you have had some type of genital or erogenous contact with about 10 to 20 people?
LEAH: Yeah, cool. Have you ever had sex with someone with a different racial identity than your own?
OLIVIA: I’m mixed, so yes and no.
OLIVIA: It’s a default.
LEAH: what’s your favorite sex toy?
OLIVIA: The wand.
LEAH: The Hitachi wand?
OLIVIA: Yeah, love it.
LEAH: What’s your favorite sex position?
OLIVIA: Whatever’s comfortable that doesn’t make my hips hurt.
LEAH: Do you have issues with your hips?
OLIVIA: Yeah, they can get tight sometimes. And also realizing I’m not flexible anymore. So, yeah, sometimes we need to adjust.
LEAH: Yeah. Do you prefer to initiate or for you partner to initiate?
OLIVIA: Depends. I think it depends on the vibe that we get from each other. If I have them giving more off a dominant personality than they are, then I’ll initiate or vice versa or a combination of both.
LEAH: Are you generally more active or more passive during lovemaking?
OLIVIA: If I’m the one giving, active. If I’m the one receiving, I can be a lot more passive.
LEAH: Okay. Do you prefer clit stimulation or penetration?
OLIVIA: I actually like both, yeah.
LEAH: Do you enjoy g-spot stimulation?
OLIVIA: I have not experienced that yet.
LEAH: Do you generally find it easy or challenging to orgasm?
OLIVIA: Challenging. I haven’t actually done it.
OLIVIA: Yeah. I’ve gone close at one time when I was 18. And then actually, a few months ago, with a wand that I guess you could say I borrowed from someone. We were doing extracurriculars with. It was divide and conquer. We both got a toy and went for it. Yeah, I’ve never actually gone all the way though.
LEAH: Okay. Do you have a sense that your body is ready and your mind is holding it back or your body hasn’t gotten there yet?
OLIVIA: I think it’s definitely more mental. It’s the fear of the unknown, fear of vulnerability, losing the control, just not knowing what it is. I don’t know what’s on the other side.
OLIVIA: Yeah. I’m actually working on it in therapy. I have a sex therapist. So, we’re working on the vulnerability and all of the emotions and behind the scenes of all of it.
LEAH: I love that. I really love that. Have you ever faked an orgasm?
LEAH: And why do you do that?
OLIVIA: I did when I was younger because I felt that’s just you were supposed to make noises and you’re supposed to finish so you just make some noises here and there and they seemed to think, “Good.”
LEAH: All right.
OLIVIA: I don’t do that now though. I’ll tell them. if someone asks me if I finished, I said, “No. I did not.”
OLIVIA: Usually, they do know about my sexual abuse though so it’s not like a shock. I usually warn them beforehand that it probably won’t happen so don’t take it personally.
LEAH: That’s great, yeah. That’s always a good strategy. So, that eliminates a few of these questions.
LEAH: What’s your favorite thing to do to a partner during sexual play?
OLIVIA: Tease until they beg for it.
LEAH: What kind of touch do you enjoy receiving the most?
LEAH: What are your hard red lines, thigs you absolutely don’t want to do?
LEAH: Any type of fluids? Does that include saliva and vaginal secretions?
OLIVIA: No like peeing. I did hear about this person, I would love to find them, who are offering $2000 cash for someone to pee on them. So, I’ll do that. I don’t want it on me.
OLIVIA: But I will take payment for being hydrated.
LEAH: I bet you could find people who want to take that deal.
OLIVIA: I have student loans, so whatever pays them off.
OLIVIA: I was going to say too another red line is anything remotely bondage. I know definitely I’m not ready for it. I don’t deal well. I’m also not really into pain. Receiving it and giving it because I’m more of a caregiver type so I don’t want to hurt anybody.
LEAH: Okay. How do you feel about porn?
OLIVIA: It’s nice.
OLIVIA: I think a fair amount is very unrealistic and does not help young people when they’re trying to figure it out because it gives false expectations and realities. The authentic ones, those are good. I like those.
LEAH: Do you enjoy giving oral sex?
LEAH: Do you enjoy receiving oral sex?
LEAH: Do you ever worry about your taste or smell?
OLIVIA: I did, yeah. I don’t think smell as much. I don’t know why, but yeah, I don’t think I really care now. If somebody wasn’t into me in that way, I would hope they would just stop and not torture themselves to keep going.
OLIVIA: But yeah, I’m not really worried about it anymore. Honestly, I got that confidence from this podcast and hearing everybody else just not give a shit because they still get laid.
LEAH: Nice. How do you feel about ass play?
OLIVIA: I’m curious about it.
LEAH: What do you consider the “kinkiest” thing you enjoy with the understanding that everyone’s scale of kink is completely different?
OLIVIA: A foursome.
LEAH: Yeah. When you’ve done foursomes, I’m assuming you’ve done them.
OLIVIA: Just one, but yes. I had one.
LEAH: And what was the gender makeup of the foursome?
OLIVIA: It was all female. Two cisgender women and two transgender women.
LEAH: Okay. And that was enjoyable for you?
OLIVIA: Very. 10/10, I would do it again.
LEAH: Nice. I love it.
LEAH: Do you enjoy dirty talk during sexual encounters?
OLIVIA: If it’s sexting, yes, because I can do that during the workday.
OLIVIA: if it’s during active actual sex, I don’t think so. I haven’t really been with partners that were into it, so we just didn’t really bother. We were occupied. We were good about it.
LEAH: Have you ever felt a sexual urge that confused you?
OLIVIA: Yeah. Fucking women.
LEAH: Yeah, I get it.
OLIVIA: It goes back to the gay with an asterisk because I actually dated a guy once freshman year of high school, first love, all of that. Honestly still love him and hate every woman he’s with, but he’s the only man that I like, so it is confusing.
LEAH: What’s your favorite part of your body?
OLIVIA: My lips.
LEAH: What’s your least favorite part of your body?
OLIVIA: Shoulders and down. Not shoulders, below shoulders.
LEAH: Yeah. I’m sorry to hear that. I hope that that is something that will ease for you.
OLIVIA: Yeah. I would say it’s getting better compared to adolescence and even just the last couple of years. We’re getting there.
LEAH: Okay, good. What is something about your current sex life that isn’t as satisfying as you’d like it to be?
OLIVIA: That I’m still terrified of orgasms.
LEAH: Yeah. What belief did you have about sex as a child or teenager that you wish you could go back and correct her on now?
OLIVIA: You could set boundaries and even if you change your mind during, you have the right to make that change.
LEAH: Olivia, this has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for talking with me today.
OLIVIA: Yeah, thanks for letting listeners talk on the show.
LEAH: My favorite.
LEAH: It makes me feel like I’m doing something right.
OLIVIA: Yeah. It’s just inspiring to hear other women who come on the show and other people who that have been on the show, explaining about the diversity of everybody’s experiences and also hearing all of the great common things that everybody has seemed to go through and I really enjoy listening to those who are talking about the things that they overcome and just how far they’ve come. So, it gives me hope.
LEAH: Awesome. I love that. Thank you and I am wishing for you that you find the orgasm when you’re ready and that it is extremely pleasurable for you.
OLIVIA: Thanks. You too.
LEAH: That’s it for today. If you’re enjoying this show, please take a moment to leave a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or if you’re using another podcast app, go to www.ratethispodcast.com/goodgirls. And remember, there’s a treasure trove of audio extras available for free at Patreon. Go to www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex.
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Good Girls Talk About Sex is produced by me, Leah Carey, and edited by Gretchen Kilby. I have additional administrative support from Lara O’Connor and Maria Franco. Transcripts are produced by Jan Acielo.
Before we go, I want to remind you that the things you may have heard about your sexuality aren’t true. You are worthy. You are desirable. You are not broken. As your sex and intimacy coach, I will guide you in embracing the sexuality that is innately yours no matter what it looks like. To set up your free discovery call, go to www.leahcarey.com/coaching.
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