I wanted to be a porn star when I was 13 – Sinn

LEAH: Welcome to Good Girls Talk About Sex. I am sex and intimacy coach, Leah Carey. And this is a place to share conversations with all sorts of women about their experience of sexuality. These are unfiltered conversations between adult women talking about sex. If anything about the previous sentence offends you, turn back now! And if you’re looking for a trigger warning, you’re not going to get it from me. I believe that you are stronger than the trauma you have experienced. I have faith in your ability to deal with things that upset you. Sound good? Let’s start the show!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Hey friends!

There’s a silly old game where if you combine the name of your first pet and the childhood street you grew up on, you’ll get your porn star name. Or your grandmother’s first name and the last thing you ate. I’m sure there are a million of these.

But what if you got to choose your porn star name? Today’s guest got to do exactly that, and she bypassed streets and foods and colors, and went straight for the good stuff: sin. Literally! Her name is Sinn (with two n’s) Sage.

And if you believe that all sex work is inherently coercive and abusive, Sinn is about to blow your mind. She decided at age 13 that she wanted to be a stripper because she loved the idea of being naked while people watch her dance. She turned her teenage fantasy into an adult reality, and she’s done it all: stripping, porn, camming, and more.

Today, she creates, produces, and markets her own porn. And because she is the one in charge, there’s nothing abusive or coercive about how she chooses to use her body. She’s an all-around business woman … and her uniform is her birthday suit.

This is a long conversation that’s filled with goodness, so let’s dive in.

Sinn is a 39-year-old, cisgender female who says she has a little bit of gender fluidity but is still happy using she/her pronouns. She describes herself as white, queer, monogamish, and married. She describes her body as slim-thick.

I’m so pleased to introduce Sinn!

LEAH: Sinn, I am so excited to have you on the show today. I love talking to people who are in the sex work industry. I think it’s so vitally important that we normalize this work and let people know that all of the mythology that they hear about sex workers is complete funk. So, thank you for being here.

SINN: It’s such an absolute pleasure for me. I actually heard about you on the Savage Lovecast, which I listen to every single episode of. And when I heard what you were doing and talking about, I came immediately to you. I wanted to be a guest for sure, but just because I love what your goal is and what you’re pushing for and striving towards. And to me, that’s such important work, the normalization of all kinds of things about sexuality. And so, I’m just so honored to be able to participate. I really, really am. So, thank you so much for having me.

LEAH: Thank you. I start every interview in the same place, which is what is your first memory of sexual pleasure?

SINN: So, I think my memories are interesting and fuzzy, but one of the first things I remember is 1^st grade and there’s swing sets with metal poles. And some of the metal poles are at an angle and they were just perfect to grab onto and try to do the challenge of getting all the way to the top.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: And I would just remember that as I was approaching the top of this pole, it was very intense feeling of pleasure.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yeah. And ddi you do that a lot? Once you discovered the feeling, did you go back and try to get it again and again?

SINN: Yes.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: How far did you get into the pleasure cycle at 6 years old? Did you come into something you would recognize as an orgasm now?

SINN: Yes. That was definitely an orgasm I was having, for sure. And then, it actually expanded from there a little bit because in 1^st grade, I did meet another person my age. And we would play outside all the time and we would take turns climbing the pole.

And then, it evolved into I remember there was this thing we used to do. It was me and this one friend. And then, going in the 2^nd grade, it would be me and a couple other friends. We would sit on the ground in front of each other, and then the person in front would reach back with their hands and basically just fiddle with the crotch region.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: Not really understanding exactly what was happening or what we were doing. And then, the anatomical sense, this was through clothes, but I just fiddle around back there. And then, we would have orgasms from that. Again, not recognizing at the time that there was such a thing as an orgasm, not knowing really much about what was going on, just knowing that this felt good for us. And so, we would do it because feeling good is nice.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: That’s fully understanding too at the same time that what we were doing was somewhat shameful, that this was something we were meant to keep a secret. We were trying to not be caught by an older person perhaps observing. It felt like we got away with it, but maybe teachers and people were just like, “Just let them do their thing.” I don’t know.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: It’s interesting that you weren’t face to face, that you were sitting one behind the other and putting your hands behind your back. It’s like that is some complex logic for a 6 year old.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: Totally agree. I couldn’t even remember or tell you how it came to that, but I definitely remember doing that.

LEAH: And were all of the people involved in this having clitorises or were there also penises involved?

SINN: No, no penises. Yeah, all vagina-owning children, for sure.

LEAH: Yeah. And so, did this at any point trigger an understanding for you of sex or sexuality or was this just a fun thing you did with your friends?

SINN: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think that what triggered that understanding that there was some sexuality happening was that shame we were feeling. If we didn’t understand that there was something sexual about it/shameful about it, I don’t see why we would’ve tried to hide it and been concerned about being caught and things like that.

So, it wasn’t like an overwhelming darkness of shame or anything. It was just like we had to keep this little thing that we do as inconspicuous as possible. And then as I grew, I remained friends with the first girl that I had interacted with until adulthood.

So, there were times when I think more going into 3^rd grade and then 4^th grade, I had actually changed schools in the 4^th grade, same community, but different elementary school. So, that started to happen less and less for sure until it was like we don’t do this anymore, almost like an unspoken kind of thing.

And I think too I have this memory of one of the other girls saying something to another peer, and then that peer being like, “So and so doesn’t want to do that anymore” and feeling like, okay then. That’s fine, but pretending like they never did it and stuff. I remember it being socially awkward.

LEAH: When people started dropping out and you were doing it less and less, was there a sense of loss for you? Did you start to touch yourself at some point in there?

SINN: Yes. So, I started masturbating around age 8 with my own hand. I’ll never forget being in my room starting to go to bed. Lights off, I’m going to bed, but I was a kid, doors open. I could hear my parents watching TV in their room. They were watching some kind of a talk show and the word that really stood out to me was masturbation. So, they were talking on this talk show about masturbation. And this being probably 1991 or 1992, so it was not in a positive way, if I recall correctly.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: And I remember thinking what they’re talking about somehow sounds like what I’m doing, but that it was even more shameful. So, that almost helped to cement that feeling that this is not something that we do or talk about. But I’d say it would be around that time that I also started to do that less with partners, I’ll call them.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: I think it was almost this age where all of us were understanding that this wasn’t an “appropriate” thing to be doing, I guess, and probably just internalizing that.

LEAH: Yeah, sure. So, you got this message about masturbating secondhand via what your parents were watching. What kind of conversation was there in your home from your parents, whether it’s about sex or being female, sexuality in general?

SINN: Yeah. It’s interesting because I definitely don’t feel that, for the most part, I was ever sex shamed or anything like that. And I don’t really remember conversations round masturbation. That’s for sure. And I don’t remember a major sex talk. I remember the very first sex talk. I was definitely 5 or 6 and we were watching Look Who’s Talking.

LEAH: The baby movie? Yeah.

SINN: The movie starts out with it’s like little sperms traveling to the egg and they’re talking to each other about who’s going to be the one to make it.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: And I think my mom, she was sitting there pregnant with my younger brother, and I think she was just like, “This seems like a good framework to tell my kid how this stuff works.” And so, it wasn’t like how it all works.

It was like, “Here’s a very basic.” So, she goes, “Those are the little sperm going to find the egg.” And I was like, “What do you mean?” And then, she’s just like, “When mommy and daddy love each other very much,” in a very standard and then it was just about penis going in vagina and sperm comes out and impregnates the egg and that’s how someone gets pregnant. And I do remember feeling very disgusted by the concept of my dad putting his penis in my mom’s vagina.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: Somehow, that persists to this day. I don’t know.

LEAH: I feel like that’s pretty appropriate.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: Yeah. So, there was that basic explanation. There was some attempt at sex education from the school. I think it was more about that happened around age 9 or 10 and that was definitely more technical things about reproduction and periods and stuff like that. And then, I definitely do remember my mom talking to me about virginity being a gift.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: Yeah. But she was also very much a feminist. However, I think that she came from the era where it was like men are trying to take advantage of women style of feminism and women are always being objectified by men style of feminism. And so, I think that now, at least for me and a lot of people, when I say feminism, it means something a lot different.

And the thing about it too is that I do believe that it was just that my mom was indoctrinated in that way. And so, it when it does come to religion, it’s like I never had it pressed upon me. We never were church going folks, not in any regular basis.

When I was in 3^rd, 4^th, 5^th grade, I was curious. I’d be staying the night at other friends’ houses on Saturday nights and we’d go to their church the next morning. And so, I was exploring that. And I think at that time, my mom had really moved beyond Christianity. So, it was never a huge influence into my life, but I think that when we talk about issues like virginity, it’s just the societal indoctrination. It’s become such a part of the story that we tell our daughters, not our sons.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yeah. So, it sounds like you had, I don’t even know how you would describe it these days because normal is not the right word, but you had a mom and a dad and at least one sibling. And was that a fairly happy family unit for you?

SINN: That is such a complicated question. So, as an adult, it’s easier to look back on my upbringing and see I was blessed in so many ways and that continues. But growing up in it, that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t painful at the time in a lot of ways and really a struggle at the time in a lot of ways.

My dad started expressing rage probably not too long after my brother was born. So, I have a lot of really incredible memories of my dad growing up that things about him that were really, really encouraging, always supporting me to be a leader and be an individual and be unique and, yeah, enjoy adventure and things like that.

So, those are all just wonderful things that I’m so grateful for. But the rage was extremely difficult at certain times and it got worse as I became a teenager and moved into high school age and stuff like that. We struggled a lot. And we did some family counselling and stuff, but I never really felt that it was very helpful.

And my brother got the worst of it. And so, for him, it’s very traumatic. I definitely have some emotional traumas from that period as well, but I’ve gone to therapy. I’m really introspective. I work on myself a lot just from the thinking.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: And mindfulness and some Buddhist and stoic concepts. But yeah, my brother, he is a psychologist. He has a doctor in psychology now. And so, he’s done some really intense work on all of that stuff. But in so many ways, we didn’t struggle. We had a home. We had clothes. Every year, we got new clothes for school. We had food to eat no matter what. And I was supported emotionally by family. But that doesn’t mean there weren’t some major struggles as well.

LEAH: Yeah, absolutely. So, at what point did you start thinking about sex or maybe if not actually sex at least moving from playing with your own body to wanting to share that with another person?

SINN: I think puberty, maybe the beginnings of puberty. I do remember having some crushes still in elementary school. I don’t know if they’re fully fleshed out fantasies because I didn’t really know what sex looked like, but knowing I think that I wanted to kiss and touch and be physically close to and intimate with these usually boys that I would have crushes on when I was 8, 9, 10.

But I think at that time too, it was just like I want a boyfriend that I can hold hands with at school because I’d see other people with boyfriends at school. And I’d have a crush on someone and I’d be like this is the person I want to hold hands with. And even in 6^th grade, I did get a boyfriend for a short period of time and it was like I get to hold hands in school.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: I think I wasn’t even really thinking about making out or anything at that point. And then, that all shifted around 8^th grade like 13. My first couple of kisses, French kissing experiences were at we would call them boy girl parties.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: So, if so and so mom’s let her kid have a boy girl party, we wanted to be invited to that fucking party. Let me tell you.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: And I am grateful because the one kiss, it was probably second or third time kissing was at this one party and there were literally maybe three of us girls and two boys. And they were older and we were playing spin the bottle. And Clueless was all our favorite movie at the time. So, that suck and blow game that they play and we’re trying that.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: Somehow, we all just managed to be making out with each other the whole time.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: And were you making out with just the boys or with everybody, all the girls too?

SINN: Just the boys because at the time, it was still maybe 1995 or 1996 at the latest and maybe Ellen was just about to come out on TV.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: So, we weren’t really there culturally yet at the point that that would be an acceptable thing. At school and stuff, you didn’t want anybody saying that you were a lesbian. So, yeah, it was just with the boys. But still to this day, I do believe I picked up my kissing style from that older attractive young man and I’m very, very happy with it.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, do tell. What is your kissing style?

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: It’s like you get your lips in there, open your mouth, and almost do a rhythmic massaging with the each other’s tongues. Yeah, and not a hard tongue like a flexed tongue muscle like a nice relaxed soft tongue muscle.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: With a good lippie kiss in between every few, yeah.

LEAH: That sounds delightful.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: Yes, if I do say so myself.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, you’re 13. You have a few experiences kissing boys at parties. Was there a point at which you were like, I want a boy, I want a boyfriend?

SINN: I had a crush on this one boy and it remained unrequited. But I will say I’ll never forget I had such a big crush on him and all my friends knew. And he definitely knew and his friends knew. And it was a whole thing.

And we’d have our little middle school dances and I don’t remember, there was some drama going on and the dance was almost over. And I guess I just wished that he would ask me to dance or something, but I’ll never forget the way I felt. I heard him call my name. I turned and look and it was like all the people parted like a movie.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: And he said, “Will you dance with me?” And I did. And it was to Keith Sweat, Twisted. The song is Twisted and we danced to it and holding each other close. It was very nice and it was a nice little charity dance that he threw my way, a little pity dance, I suppose.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: And let me tell you, I went home and I fucking played that song. I got that CD just for that song. And I’ve played it a million times weeping into my pillow.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, nothing came of that with that boy?

SINN: No, never did. I do think that at freshman year, he did ask me to homecoming dance. We went to homecoming dance together. So, somewhere I’ve got one of those little dance photos that you would take, yeah. But nothing happened. It was just like a nice thing for him to do.

LEAH: So, when was the first time that you actually got involved with somebody?

SINN: Man, I had some of those little hand holdy couple day relationships in middle school and stuff, but my first real relationship that I remember being very invested in and I was in love with her, it was someone who I was definitely obsessed with a little bit.

So, I came to high school and I was just trying to dress like everyone else and fit in with the crowd. And then in my English class, which I had my mom for a teacher twice in high school actually.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: My freshman year and again my senior year and there was a young lady sitting in front of me and she was in all black. She had red and black eyeliner, and then her bangs, she had used whatever type of product to pull them directly over down the front of her face, but in little spikes almost. And they went all the way down to her nose or chin or something. It was very weird, but I was just instantly intrigued by this person. She was super goth and here I was in my outfit from Wet Seal or whatever.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: And she’s got this Marilyn Manson stuff all over. And I’m just like what is this? I just instantly wanted to know her more. And then, I guess I must have been a little bit inspired, so after freshman year, I was like when I go back to school, I don’t think I want to be fitting in in the same way that I’ve always tried to. I think I want to try to maybe present myself a little bit differently.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Do you struggle with how your body looks during sex? You’re not alone. Growing up as little girls, most of us learned that our worth was entirely tied to how we look. We saw TV shows and movies and fashion magazines that showed a very narrow range of bodies and we were told that those were the perfect desirable bodies. The message, if you don’t look like that, you’re not worthy of love.

But here’s the not so secret secret. They’re lying. There are people who want to love you in the body you’re in today, I promise. They want to see your body. They want to touch your body. They want to worship your body, I promise. But even if a person is already touching you, if you don’t believe you’re worthy of their time, attention, affection, you’ll never let yourself relax enough to enjoy it.

And you deserve to relax. You deserve to let yourself be seen and touched and worshipped. You deserve to experience pleasure without thinking about how much your arms jiggle. You deserve to have sex in any position you want, not just the one where you think you look the thinnest. Would you tell your daughter or sister or best friend that they don’t deserve love because they don’t look like Kim Kardashian? Of course not.

So, let’s do something to help you stop staying that to yourself. I want you to have a deeply fulfilling intimate life and I would be honored to be your coach on the journey to get there. I’m queer, kinky, and non-monogamy friendly and I would love to talk with you. So, for more information and to schedule your free discovery call, visit www.leahcarey.com/coaching. That’s www.leahcarey.com/coaching for your free discovery call. That link is on the episode description on the app you’re listening on now. Back to the show!

[MUSIC]

SINN: By the end of my sophomore year, I was full on hot topic goth kid completely.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: But I think that was what was interesting is just I didn’t quite understand that I was growing feelings for her until yeah, after 10^th grade year. That summer and then going into 11^th and I was just like I knew that I wanted to be with her at that point.

And so, there was this one night and we got drunk and we started making out. And I was just like, “Oh my gosh, I wanted this for so long.” And she was like, “Are you kidding me? I wanted this for so long.” And she’s like, “You’re the most beautiful girl I’ve ever seen. And oh my gosh.”

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: It felt so amazing. But then, it was like going into the school year, I was so, “We’re together now, right?” She did eventually say, “Yes, we’re together. You’re my girlfriend. We’re girlfriends now.” And I was like, “This is so great.”

And we felt like we had to keep it a secret at school, but there was something that happened and we just started holding hands. And then, we went to homecoming together before, which she and I got so insanely high before we went that I barely remember it. The thing I mainly remember is just standing at the table with the snacks and eating chips and salsa, just fucking high out of our minds.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: But we were dancing together and we were holding hands. And then, we were a couple at school. We were holding hands from class to class. It felt really amazing and I was definitely in love with her and really attached to that.

And that was a revelation at my school for sure because the area I grew up in is very small and it was highly religious. There was a Mormon church catty-corner across the street from the school and a Catholic church right across the street from the school. That was a whole thing. So, we were definitely the first couple on my campus 100% to be an out couple.

LEAH: Did you get blowback for that?

SINN: So, I can only speak for my experience. I didn’t experience any blowback. I remember sometimes, I’d go to a class and my friend, she came in and she slammed her shit on the table. I could tell she was very upset. And I was like, “What’s wrong?” And she didn’t say, “People were talking shit about you,” but she was like, “Basically, I’m sick of all this ignorance and the way people are talking about it.” I guess it just felt very subtle at the time.

And then, my other friend, my best friend, I was like, “Have people said anything?” And she’s like, “Yeah, I heard some people saying some stuff that I just didn’t hear it. They were walking behind us and I guess maybe they were saying something, I don’t know.” But yeah, so for me, again just more blessed, again just blessed in so many ways.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: But I don’t know what her experience was. I do know that after we were together officially for probably about three months and then she came to me one day. We went to the library and she’s like, “I don’t think I can be in this relationship anymore. I feel like we were too good friends before that now I struggle with the intimacy aspect or whatever.” And so, I started crying. And then, I went to my mom’s classroom at lunch and that’s where some of my other friends were. And I was just like, “She broke up with me.”

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: Because she just got in touch with me again and I was so disappointed, I was so excited to hear from her because it’s been about 15 years, but then it quickly turned into disappointment when she started saying stuff like they’re brainwashing kids in schools to be trans and something about Trump, I love that guy. And I just didn’t say anything. But I think my friends are at the time in high school after she broke up with me didn’t want to be like, “Thank God, you got away from her.”

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: But I’m pretty sure that’s what they were thinking and feeling at the time. Yeah, so that was my first relationship and my only full-on romantic relationship with a woman.

LEAH: During that relationship, did you begin to think of yourself as lesbian? So, from my own experience, I didn’t understand that you could like boys and girls. I thought you had to like either boys or girls. And so, bisexuality came as a complete surprise to me when I was in my 20s. And so, I’m wondering when you were in high school dating a woman, did that say something to you about who you thought you were?

SINN: I realized that I was bisexual probably around 12. 12 was when it started where I was watching Clueless or watching Craft. And I’m like I’m so attracted to these women, but I don’t really understand what does that mean?

And then, I would masturbate at night and I would think about Cher from Clueless being between my legs. And so, that was how I started to feel like I think this might be a thing. And then as time went on and I started to just understand it better. By the time I hit 14 and freshman year, I knew I was bisexual.

I made a big deal out of telling my best friend. It was just a big secret and I was like, “I have this secret and I really want to tell you, but I’m so worried” because she at the time and continuing to this day was extremely Christian. Very, very invested, but with that being said, I was afraid that if I told her that that might be now she doesn’t want to be my friend anymore or something. So, I dragged it out for a couple weeks, and then when I finally told her, I remember how difficult it was to get the words out of my mouth. That was so hard, but when I did, she was like, “Yeah, I knew.”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: When I was coming out, I hated it when that was people’s answer because I was like, “Then why didn’t you tell me?”

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: But yeah, that’s how I identified at the time was bisexual, but I was just so lucky, especially the town I grew up in. I just didn’t experience a lot of hate and my mom, the only reason why she said something and I never came to my mom and I was like, “Listen, I’m bisexual,” at least I don’t remember doing that, but I did start holding hands with my girlfriend on campus where my mom taught school. It’s a very small campus, so yeah, she definitely saw. And I just remember one day driving to school and she was just concerned as any parent might be, not about my identity, but that I would be a victim of violence because of my identity.

I know that’s what her concern was, but me being a 16 year old girl, I was like, “How could you say these things to me when you always raised me to believe this is a fine way of being? It’s just another way of being and we are accepting and loving and that’s the type of people that we are.”

So, I felt that whatever incongruity there that I was so frustrated at the time. It was just a different time. And so, I can understand her concern in a way that I definitely couldn’t at the time. And I did fool around with another girl before, I just remembered, this, my relationship. It wasn’t a relationship, but we made out, we did some hands stuff.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, you mentioned that that was your only serious relationship with a woman. Was there a conscious decision to move back to men or did it just happen to be the circumstances?

SINN: It’s just the circumstances, yeah, for sure. No, I just never thought about it like that, I guess. I’ve just really been like I am myself and I am going to pursue the people that I’m attracted to.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: Yeah, again, I was just lucky I didn’t have any of these concepts hanging over my head trying to steer me towards heteronormativity or whatever. This is why I know identify as queer and I love that everyone can identify as however they feel that they are.

For me, I choose queer over bisexual because it just doesn’t feel like a binary to me. My attraction doesn’t feel like a binary. But it’s totally valid to have the same type of relationships with other humans as I do, but call yourself something else, pansexual or bisexual. It’s fine.

But just for me and oftentimes, I’m demisexual with men that it’s not usually like a visual automatic attraction with men. It’s like maybe I’ve been like this guy is cute because he plays guitar and he’s cute. And then, his friend, I’m not so much into just off looks, but then I get to know them both. And I’m like actually, I’m more attracted to his friend because of all these other things that I find attractive. So, that sort of thing would happen. So, it was just that.

The other thing about it is that I do think that relationship wise, and I’ve only been in 2 long term serious relationships in my adulthood, but they were with men. They currently are, my husband is my life partner. So, yeah, and then I feel more sexual attraction to women generally. This is all just being general, but yeah, less interested in long-term serious romantic relationships with women, but very, very physically attracted to women. So whatever, I’m sure someone will come up with a name for that eventually.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: That is actually exactly my breakdown as well. I am physically extremely attracted to women and I choose the vast majority of my romantic relationships have been with men. And the way that I call that is that I am bisexual and I use the term bi to mean people whose bodies look like mine and people whose bodies don’t look like mine.

SINN: Awesome. I love that.

LEAH: Just because that was the word that became available to me. Anyway, so I’m bisexual, meaning that I’m attracted to lots of different bodies, but I’m primarily heteromantic.

SINN: Yeah, heteromantic and just primarily, that’s the thing too. I don’t feel like it’s a glass cage that I can’t escape.  But I’m in these boxes and I can’t be any different. It’s happened to me before. I don’t see why it wouldn’t happen to me again to be more romantically attracted to a woman, but I am married and I know that this is the person for me. And it does happen to be a man.

And so, it’s like a little monogamish. I have some freedom when it comes to women. And if I did develop feelings, they would always be secondary to my primary relationship, for sure. But it’s not to say that that could never happen, it just feels slightly unlikely. But we’ve had lots of amazing experiences with threesomes, both recording it for work, but also with no cameras, which definitely makes it better or more fulfilling.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: And that is something that’s really important to me. I love that. That’s one of my favorite things because both of us get to enjoy another person, equal enjoyment, and usually it’s the two of us lavishing attention on the third because that’s our little gift. I don’t know. I love it and I want to make sure that everyone is enjoying themselves and each other. And this is all fun and good.

And then, that being said too, we have done scenes with transwomen and I am definitely a queer person. So, even though he identifies as cis and straight, the relationship we have is still queer because that’s just who we are, I guess.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, tell me about how you got into sex work.

SINN: So, growing up in the 1990s and stuff, I didn’t have access to internet porn at all really. But somehow, I knew I wanted to be a porn star when I was 13.

LEAH: Really?

SINN: Yeah. And I didn’t know what that meant. I didn’t know that that meant I’d be fucking dudes or I’d be fucking girls or I’d even have to make a differentiation between that. It was more just this ephemeral idea, this concept of being naked, naked performance, something like that. And so, I actually was telling everybody at school that I wanted to be a porn star when I was 13.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: I still have my 8^th grade yearbook and everyone’s leaving comments fully supporting that decision.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: That’s amazing, given the time and space you were in.

SINN: Totally agree. And then, as I went into high school, it morphed into being a stripper, all of it just to me sounded so adventurous and wild and exotic and exciting. And that’s the lifestyle I wanted. I didn’t even think about it in any sort of long-term career type of sense. I just knew that I wanted to do this stuff.

And so, on my 18^th birthday, I had even called a local strip club maybe a month before I turned 18 and I was like, “Hey, so I just want to know what’s the procedure to get to be able to work there.” And at some point, I think I must’ve mentioned I’m not 18 yet, but I’m going to be soon and whoever I was talking to was like, “Call back when you’re 18.”

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: And I’m like, “Fair. That’s fair.” But yeah, so somehow I got involved. So, it was a friend’s older sister and, of course, everyone knew. I talked about this all the time. So, I was like, “Hey, I’m going to be 18. Which club? I could go work at a club or what am I going to do?” She was like, “I actually have a friend who could get you hooked up with these more bachelor parties and stuff.”

So, she set it up so that it was literally on the day of my 18^th birthday. We met at this hotel room and he’s like, “All right. Here’s what we normally do. This is what happens normally with shows. You’re going to get there. It’s going to be one guy. You get the money. You bring it back out to the driver. And you come back in the room and you do a show. And the guy’s going to jerk off while you do whatever you’re going to do. Dance around, play with yourself, whatever and try to get it done in less than an hour. You pay for an hour, try to get tips. And that’s how you do this.” And I was like, “This isn’t the bachelor party thing that I thought it was.”

LEAH: What did you think?

SINN: I thought it would be more like bachelor parties. I thought it was like everyone’s having these bachelor parties and they’re calling strippers over. And so, it’d be groups of five to ten guys and we’re just doing naked dancing in front of them and stuff. I think that’s what I thought.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: Again, I didn’t have a lot of examples or access to media about this. I just didn’t know exactly what I was getting into, but I knew that I wanted to get into it. So, he’s sitting next to her already jerking off. It was a total stranger and she’s just sitting there. And she gives me this look on her face like, “This is what we’re doing.” She’s trying not to laugh, but oh my God, it was so funny.

And really after that, I barely even remembered what happened. I think that I just went over to the bed and just awkwardly touching my body and taking off my clothes and maybe playing with her boobs a little bit or something. And then, he finished up pretty much right away. And then, so again, this was 2001. And we each got $50. That felt like a win at the time.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: I was like, wow, $50 in my hand. This is a whole week’s paycheck.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: And so, I did end up signing on with that company and I only did it for maybe, gosh, a month, maybe a couple months. And I never made that much money because I didn’t know what I was doing and I was just barely an adult. I didn’t know how to hustle or play a game. And to this day, I don’t play games.

I’m just so straightforward and authentic and I take people as they come to me. So, I never made that much money because I didn’t want to give hand jobs and I didn’t want any kinds of jobs. I just wanted to take my clothes off and people want to jerk off to that. That was more than fine with me.

I always felt like orgasms were a little celebration. So, when the shows did go through and they were like that where I was just dancing around and the guy was jerking off and then he came and he was so happy and excited. And it made me happy and excited and I was like this is great.

But so much of the time, they were just like, “If you’re not even going to jerk me off, what are you doing here? Leave.” Shit like that would happen all the time. So, I didn’t last very long. I did do maybe a couple of photoshoots that I found in the back of city magazines and stuff. They used to have ads and so I did a couple of those. And it felt good. I wasn’t quite ready for video yet, but I enjoyed taking the pictures and getting paid for it. It was really nice.

And then, I was working at the Olive Garden. I was just struggling with my ex and I just reached this point where I was like I am ready to go do this thing where I strip in a club and I’ve been wanting to do this and he knew I had been wanting to do this.

And so, I was like I think I need to just do it and went to the strip club and walked in. And they’re like, “Yeah, you can audition. What’s your stage name?” I was like, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t even know this was a thing.” So, at first, I said something like Randy. And then, I was like, “No, wait. Make it Sinn with two Ns.”

LEAH: So, that was just an off the cuff idea.

SINN: Yeah, basically. It was a little bit inspired from my high school girlfriend. So, she had this hamster that she named Disease. That’s the aesthetic there.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: So, I always thought that something that was like that, something that was dark. And I don’t know, Sinn sounded good almost like a, I don’t know, in your face type of thing.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: And I thought with two Ns because you got to make it different somehow. You want to make it more exciting. Yeah, and I went in there. It was actually cute because I had on, it was a dress, but it was a tight sexy dress what I considered to be. And the stripers were just like, “No. just take off that dress. What do you have on underneath?” I was like, “Bra and panties.” They’re like, “This is how you go out on stage.” I was like, “okay, thank you for the help.”

[LAUGHTER]

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Hey friends, new in 2023, I’m teaching a full year of live, online classes! Make 2023 the year you fall in love with your sex life! In fact – that’s the name of the series – Fall in love with your sex life – a year of sexy secrets.

There will be 14 classes in total, and you’re welcome to cherry pick the ones you want to attend or purchase a pass to get them all.

We’ll kickstart the series with weekly classes in February. They’ll be:

Tie Me, Spank Me, Talk Dirty To Me – Dipping your toes into kink on Sunday, Feb. 5
How can I enjoy sex if I hate my body? On Sunday, Feb. 12
Wanting to want sex – diving into libido and desire on Sunday, Feb. 19

and

I’m a feminist, why do I want to be spanked? On Sunday, Feb. 26

Beginning in March, we’ll move to one class a month (the final Sunday of each month, except December) and all classes are at 8 pm Eastern / 5 pm Pacific.

Classes are recorded so everyone who registers will get a copy, whether you’re able to attend in person or not. You’re welcome to send questions in advance if you know you can’t be there, and I’ll make sure to answer them on the recording.

Each class is scheduled for 90 minutes, and I’ll stay on the line with the recording running for up to another half hour to make sure we cover as many questions as possible.

In the first class, Tie Me, Spank Me, Talk Dirty To Me, we’ll break down those four letters – BDSM – because they cover a LOT of territory, as well as types of kink that may not fall under the umbrella of BDSM.

Then we’ll talk about the foundational pieces of getting involved in kink and how to stay safe like: how to talk about what you want, setting boundaries, and how do you use a safe word if you’re gagged? There will be plenty of time for questions, and there is no question that is too basic or too kinky.

Registration is open now at www.leahcarey.com/classes.

You can register for just the “Tie Me, Spank Me, Talk Dirty To Me” class on Feb. 5, OR a bundle of the February classes, OR the entire series.

And to sweeten the pot, here’s an offer ONLY for podcast listeners: use the link in the shownotes to leave a review for the Good Girls Talk About Sex podcast. When it’s posted, take a screenshot and send it to me and I’ll send you a coupon for $5 of your first registration!

If you’re feeling turned on by the very idea of having these conversations in a safe, supportive, non-judgmental space – register right now while you’re still juiced!  It’s so easy to let your sex life take last priority, so flip the script RIGHT NOW, while you’re feeling the energy. Make sex a priority.

Go to www.leahcarey.com/classes to register. That link is in the show description of the app you’re listening on now.

Let’s make 2023 the year you fall in love with your sex life!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Have you taken any dance lessons? Did you know how to work the pole? What kind of preparation did you have for this?

SINN: Nothing really. When I was growing up, like I said, I was doing lots of feeder and I did take a few dance classes, but it’s very different thing from dancing on stage in a strip club.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: So, I’ve just wandered around the poles and sling up against them and spin around them. And I’m sure it looks awkward, but what happens when you’re a stripper in a strip club is you really learn by watching a lot. And there are so many times in the club where it’s like practically empty, so there’s lots of watching you can do and that’s how I learned a bunch of pole tricks and just really refined that performance just from watching.

And I ended up doing that for years. Yeah, so I got hired and at that first weekend, I worked Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights and I made $1,000 in a few days. And at that time when it was like I had just been making tips at the Olive Garden and it was enough to pay the bills at the time, especially as there were no cellphones. So, no cellphone bill. It was just a landline and then the apartment. We had a two bedroom apartment for $525.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: Isn’t that crazy to think about now? Just 20 years ago, so different world.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: So, yeah, to just be busting my ass to try to make those bills to getting double our rent in just three nights. I was like this works for me. This really works for me. And also, I really enjoyed it, definitely enjoyed the attention. And I loved going to a place where I barely have to have clothes  on to do my job and I get to look and feel and be sexy for a living. To me, that was all just so appealing. So, yeah, I put in my two week notice at the Olive Garden.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: And then, we were able to move. I had enough money to put a down payment to live in a place where we more wanted to be at the time, yeah.

LEAH: And so, the club you were in, was it a no touch club?

SINN: Do those even exist?

LEAH: I don’t know. I’m asking you.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: How does that work?

SINN: No.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: The way that it works, I haven’t danced in every state in the country or anything, but I have danced in various places all around the country. The way that it is generally speaking is that the customers touch as much as the dancer’s willing to let them at least in the certain outside areas.

If you’re at a club where lap dances are done, we’ll call it on the floor, meaning the main area where everyone’s sitting and watching the dancers. Some clubs, you give the dances there. The $20 dances are there. Other clubs, even the $20 dances, you pull off into a more private space. But definitely, you’re trying to hustle those VIPs which would be usually three songs for $70 or something like that.

And there’s a more private area, but you get a bigger cut. There’s various different models of this as you go to different clubs. But I think it really is a thing of whatever you’re comfortable with generally speaking is what you can get away with up to a certain point. But that being said, I have worked in some of the dirtiest, dirty meaning the dancers are doing more full service stuff inside the strip club.

LEAH: And for people who are not familiar with the term full service, can you describe that?

SINN: Yeah. So, when we say sex work and sex worker, it’s a total umbrella term. It means all work that’s done of any kind of a sexual nature. Web camming, sexting services, phone sex services, really anything, even if you have zero face-to-face interaction with a customer or a client, that’s still sex work. I’ll even partially say maybe even owning a retail sex toy store. These are just things, these are sex-based, sex-based economy. So, in my opinion, that makes you a sex worker.

But full service sex worker is the term that I definitely prefer for people who do either physical hand jobs, foot jobs, blow jobs, or full-on anal or vaginal, oral penetration. So, that would be full service sex work. And there are message boards and stuff for strip club customers, strip club aficionados, let’s call them, connoisseurs perhaps.

And then, they would have the system for rating dancers, but this one strip club, there were $20 dances out on the floor, but the way you made the money was to get them back in that VIP room. And those VIP rooms was three songs for $120 out of which we would get I believe $70 maybe. And it was you bring them back there, sit them on the couch, and pull the curtain shut. Everything was going on back there.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, anything goes as long as you’re okay with it?

SINN: Yeah. And I had my own boundaries. They were pretty set. It made it a struggle for me because I knew what I was competing with and I did have to reach a point where I just was trying to play the game a little bit.

So, there was a three song VIP room and then there was a five song VIP room that was even further in the back. That cost more money. I think it was $200 for the five songs. And there was this guy and I’m trying to talk him into going in the back. And he was like, “Yeah, can I do this? Can I do that?” And I was like, “It’s crazy back there. I don’t know. We’d have to go back there.” And he was like, “Will you suck it?” And I said, “Yeah.” So, we went back there. And I’m just dancing on him. And then, I take his hand and I put his finger in my mouth and I sucked on it.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: Which now, I’m like fucking disgusting, but I’m like that’s probably worse.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: But then, it’s going towards the end of it and he’s like, “You said you’d suck it.” And I said, “I didn’t say what.”

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: But that did not make me feel good. And also, the other thing about that time period and that place was we did not get the money before we did the dance. And so, there were times that it was just cut real close. I think in that situation, he’s like, “I don’t even have to give you the money.” And I remember just this wave of panic washing over me. And then, I was like that was a really stupid thing for me to fucking do. Luckily, he paid me, but then I was just like I don’t think I can play that game anymore.

The game is to let these guys think whatever they want to think is going to happen back there without saying that it’s going to happen, but that is so much labor, so much emotional labor. Now, it’s easier to see that, but yeah, it made things a little harder for me just because I did have those boundaries, but just the reputation of the club made it that people were in there and they were spending money sometimes.

LEAH: So, you were in a relationship at the same time that you started dancing? Is that correct?

SINN: Yes.

LEAH: And so, what were the agreements that you had within your relationship?

SINN: Yeah. Because he also knew that I very much wanted to perform, that I wanted to make porn and that opportunity came from the strip club. I had been working at that strip club for three months and this girl had worked there a few times. And then, one day she’s talking in the back and she’s like, “Yeah, my boyfriend makes my website and blah, blah, blah.” And I was like, “You have a website? I’ve always wanted a website.”

I wanted to do website stuff and back in 2002, I guess it was. That was a huge thing. A membership site back then, it was great. We didn’t have pirating and stuff going on at the same time and all this stuff. So, they took me to my first AVN Convention in 2003 and then that’s how things started snowballing towards my career in performance-based sex work.

So, before the strip club, I remember that he was just like, “Just don’t get caught up in it,” whatever that meant. And then, I did do a fuckup one time because I don’t know. I was just a baby.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: And I met a guy there at the strip club that I was having a great conversation with and he was a young person also. And I just didn’t understand yet at that time that men in strip clubs are not there to make friends with strippers.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: And so, I was just really friendly and just super naïve. And so, I just stupidly gave my phone number to a guy at a strip club and he called I think when I wasn’t even there or something. And my boyfriend answered the phone and, yeah, that was a really big deal.

So, I knew in my heart of hearts, I was desperately in love with this guy, the concept of sleeping with another dude, that wasn’t even something that would cross my mind. But he had a very different upbringing and stuff and this was within a year of our relationship. So, I think he struggled with that a lot.

But he was also reaping the benefits of this work that I was doing. There was many, many times he did not have a job for extended periods. And it was me making money. But our agreement especially when I got into porn, again it wasn’t even a concept that I thought of that I have to decide am I going to do boy girl or girl girl?

To me, it was very obvious. I’m obviously not going to do boy girl because I’m not going to sleep with other men while I’m with you, but you do know that I’m a bisexual person and that to do scenes with women, that has to be okay. I think even at the time, I was just like this is what I’m doing.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: You’re going to be onboard or not, even though I would’ve done anything for him, I don’t think I would’ve given up that particular dream or vision that I have for my life. So, that was pretty much it. It was just like do girl girl and it’ll be fine. And at first, it really was fine. I never ever reached a point where he was like, “I don’t want you doing porn anymore.”

That definitely wasn’t a thing ever because I think he knew that wouldn’t have worked, but he was never supportive. He was never like, “Tell me about your day. How was it? What was it like? Who did you work with?” And especially getting into the industry, I did a ton of fetish work, so not necessarily sex scenes. I always call them you’re playing pretend with your friends or your coworkers, you’re just playing little games for pretend and you get paid for it at the end of the day.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: I was like I don’t see the problem here. But there was this weird period of time where he did start saying, “I want to make it fair. You get to have sex with women. Why don’t I get to?” kind of a thing. But looking back now, I know it was because he had started sleeping with my best friend behind my back.

And so, he’s like, “I don’t know.” And I also think other people were saying to him, I don’t think, I know like his cousin would be like, “Why is it okay for her to sleep with other girls, but it’s not okay for you?” And I’m like, first of all, if we’re going by that logic, that would mean that it’s okay for you to sleep with other guys, which I know you don’t want to do.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: But now obviously, I look at things way differently, but I think that’s it. He just wanted to be able to justify what he was doing. And I think it was unhealthy in a lot of ways. But even after that all came out and we moved on with our lives, I stayed with him for another seven years. Yeah, it was just really bad. And it was a lot of codependency, a lot of not even understanding that I was really depressed.

I knew I was miserable, but I was just like this’ll be my life. I just resigned to that misery. It took a lot and a while for me to realize that I had the power to end the relationship and I was the only one who would be able to do it. So, I finally did.

And the crazy thing about it too is that I knew logically that on the other side of the mountain that was me breaking up with him, there was a better life waiting for me. I was so depressed that the concept of climbing that mountain seemed so out of reach.

LEAH: I think the other logical fallacy with him saying, “If you get to, why don’t I get to?” is this is your work. This is your profession. Perhaps you get some pleasure from it and awesome, but that doesn’t make it any less of your work. He’s just wanting to get his rocks off.

SINN: 100%. That is a very accurate observation.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: Yeah, but making that distinction at that time, I didn’t have the vocabulary for it or even quite the understanding that I definitely have now about that, yeah.

LEAH: So, were you dancing and doing porn at the same time or are those two things incompatible?

SINN: No, totally compatible. Yeah, I definitely was. So, when I started dancing, I didn’t have a foot in the door with porn, but like I said, I went to the AVN.

LEAH: That’s the Adult Video Network?

SINN: Yes. Adult Video Network and they put on a convention every January. It’s the convention for three, four days, and then the last day that evening is the awards show. And so, AVN Awards is, yeah, for lack of a better concept, it is the Oscars of porn.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: Yeah. And so, that got my foot in the door and I’d hustle some gigs from time to time. But it wasn’t enough for me to sustain myself on exclusively. I did have to keep dancing to get the income. It was around maybe late 2007 that I started getting booked enough porn work that I didn’t need to go to the strip club anymore. And so, I would still do it on occasion, but never again seriously as in multiple days a week for my main income source.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: I get so many messages from listeners saying, “Thank you for the show. I’ve listened to the whole back catalog and it’s helped me completely transform my sex life.” Are you one of those people? If so, I’d love to have your support, so I can keep growing this show and bringing a new vision of sexuality to the world.

If you haven’t done it yet, please take a moment to rate and review this podcast. I know the podcast industry does not make reviewing a show easy. So, go to www.ratethispodcast.com/goodgirls. And it should lead you through the process of posting a review. I’d love to get 100 reviews by the end of the year and I could use your help.

And if you have the financial resources to support the sex positive work I do, I’d be so grateful for your support at Patreon. Donating the equivalent of a fancy cup of coffee each month might not make a big difference to you, but it makes a huge difference to me. There’s no contract or obligation. You can cancel it any time. And I donate 10% of all proceeds to ARC-Southeast, an organization that supports women in the Southeast United States to access reproductive services that are now either illegal or heavily legislated. It’s easy to become a patron at www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex.

And speaking of Patreon, there is a treasure trove of additional audio at Patreon that’s free for everyone to listen to. You don’t even need to have a Patreon account to access it. Just go to www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex to start listening. I appreciate every one of you, whether you’re a client, a contributor, a social media follower, or a silent listener. I trust you to know what’s right for you. Thank you for being here. Now, let’s get back to the show!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Shooting porn, it sounds like more enjoyable for you than dancing. Is that accurate?

SINN: I guess I would say yes, but of course, I do feel nostalgia.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: So, definitely, if I ever go as a customer to a strip club, I love watching the women and I can enjoy just watching, but I always get that sensation that it should be me on that stage because that’s just the exhibitionist in me.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: But the main thing is that when it comes to porn, I walk into a scenario I know exactly how much money I’m leaving with. I know pretty much what’s going to be going down. And for me too, making that transition from going from working at the strip club to the first few times I’d had professional mainstream girl girl shoots, I felt like a movie star. I felt like a princess. It was just like, “What do you need? What do you want? What can we get for you? Here’s craft services over here. Here’s some makeup artists doing your makeup over there. Put on your pretty girl outfits,” which is a term I had to learn.

You got to take your pretty girls. It’s basically just the photoset that you take before you do a scene. And so, I get to put on my pretty girls outfit and feel sexy and have someone take pictures of me and especially when I was younger or newer I should say, there was a lot of encouragement and verbal confirmation of my sexiness.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: From the photographer, so to me, I was like why would anyone not do this? And I remembered working with girls at the strip club. Some of them were just so beautiful. I definitely had a crush on this one girl, Star. And I knew that at that strip club, she had clients that she had her separate burner phone to contact these clients. And they’d come in and they’d take her into the VIP and they’d be back there for a long time. And I know she’s getting paid $1,000 to have sex with this guy.

But I was like, “If you did this porn, you could get paid $1,000 to have sex with a guy and you’d be treated extremely well and it wouldn’t be in a dirty ass strip club. And you get to feel like a movie star.” And I couldn’t understand why one wouldn’t prefer to do that. Of course, now I totally understand why and everything that I’ve made, it’s out there on the internet forever.

LEAH: But it was a different time then. You had no idea what was coming in terms of streaming and pirating and all of that.

SINN: Yes, totally. Nope, not a fortune teller.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yeah. So, I think I know that you’re still doing camera work. How has that changed over the years? Are you still shooting mainstream porn? Are you doing something different now?

SINN: Yes. So, the industry has changed maybe a dozen times since I entered it.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: It’s just this constantly evolving thing especially because it’s so wrapped up in media and media technology and stuff. So, of course, it’s going to be evolving over and over and over again. So, I like to put it as the first 10 years of my career were definitely me getting paid to do performances.

So, mainstream porn has a couple different types of connotations, but I still do perform in it. I probably always will as long as they want to pay my rates and everything like that. But the first 10 years of my career, it would be like I was just basically waiting for the phone to ring or the email to come in or the text, “Are you available on this day? Can you do a scene with so and so?” And then, I’d get paid anywhere from on the low end, it would be maybe $600 or $700 dollars. On the high end, it would be maybe $900, average was $800. And it still is. That hasn’t changed much depending on lots of various other things.

LEAH: And is that for a  day, for a couple hours, for two days? What is it?

SINN: At most, a day. But basically that is for a sex scene, no matter how long it takes to shoot. So, sometimes, I’d go in there and it takes two hours. I’m in and out and I get $800. There have been times that I’ve been sitting on set for 14 hours and I got $800 and that is how it works. So, that was great and what was fun about all of that is that it was I went home from the gig. I had no homework.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: I got the money and I could just do with my time, dress my time however I wanted. Now, things are different and there is lots of homework. So, it changed around the time of Pornhub becoming this monolithic figure.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: The companies were producing a lot less. They didn’t have the money that they had before. And so then, my proverbial phone wasn’t ringing as much. And I stated to get a little concerned. I was web camming to make some extra money and it was okay. But around 2012, 2013, I had started getting asked about custom videos. And I was like, “Sorry, I don’t make them. I don’t have the means of making them.”

LEAH: Can you explain what a custom video is?

SINN: Absolutely. So, a custom video is a personalized video for a fan. What they’ll do is send me an email describing the video that they want to see. It’ll be this many minutes. It has this many this performers and you’re doing these acts. And that can be anything from fully clothed sticking a finger up your nose all the way to explicit hardcore pornography. And then, I tell them what price I want for the whole entire creation of the video.

So, that usually includes not only either if it’s a sex act, it’ll be the cost of that sex act. If it’s more fetishy, less explicit stuff, it’s usually $10-$20 a minute or maybe it’s $125 per model for 10 minutes of video. That’s how the pricing structure works a little bit. And then, I add a little bit for camera work and a little bit for editing. And then, they pay me the price.

I don’t start shooting the video until I’ve received the full amount. I shoot the video that they ask for. My thing is as much as attention to the detail as possible, which for some reason, a lot of producers seem to struggle with. For me, it’s very easy.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: It’s written right there. Just do what they ask for. But anyways, yeah, so that. And then, when the video’s done, it gets edited, then it gets uploaded to a file sharing service. And then, I share the file with the client. And then, I chase them down until they tell me what they thought of it.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: Usually, they get right back because they’re very excited. They’re like, “This is the best thing ever. Thank you so much for making it.” So, that’s really fulfilling.

LEAH: Are you making them in your home, in a studio? Who’s doing the editing? You mentioned your husband earlier. Is he part of this whole production team? Is this all in-house or do you have to send some of it out?

SINN: Yes, very lucky and blessed. So, my husband, it’s all in-house. In fact, it’s really nice because I can write off a lot of my rent because I use this space to make my productions nine times out of ten. Every once in a while, I’ll be like, “I’m sick of shooting in this bed, let’s just a freaking hotel room,” or if I’m traveling sometimes to work with other models, we’ll get an Airbnb or a hotel room. But otherwise, I shoot everything in this space. I make everything in this space. And then, my husband is the camera person. Unless he is in the video with me and it’s not a POV thing, then we hire someone else.

LEAH: What’s a POV thing?

SINN: POV is point of view. So, what that means specifically in porn is that the person holding the camera is also engaging in the sex. So, yeah, that’s POV porn. So, sometimes it just means that I’m looking at the camera and talking to the camera. So, it’s the person I’m making the video for. Sometimes, that’s all it means.

Other times, it means that I’m still looking at the camera I’m pretending that’s the person who ordered the video, but it’s my husband’s body because he is the only male that I have sex with on camera. So, if someone wants to see boy girl sex scene with me, it’s going to be with me and my husband. And so, it can be really sexy for people to be able to put themselves, their own mind, into the body of the person that I’m doing the thing with. And yeah, that’s POV porn.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: And I imagine if you’re having sex with your husband on camera, it is going to be some performative stuff because you’re angling your body for the camera and all of that. But you’re probably still having some amount of the same pleasure you would have when you’re having personal sex. Is that true?

SINN: It’s interesting. I think it changes. I think it comes and goes in waves sometimes throughout my life experience and the experience of being a sex worker and making videos in that way. And this is regardless of it’s my husband or another partner or whatever really, sometimes it is extremely stimulating still.

Sometimes, maybe less so because I’m very concerned. Especially if I’m making my own productions, my own customs, there’s this little thing living inside of my brain that’s like, okay, you need to make sure that you said these lines. Did you get that angle that the customer asked for? How’s the lighting here? All those little things.

So, if someone else is shooting, if it’s me and my husband and someone else was doing the camera work, in my mind, I’m just, are they getting those angles that are really important I pointed them out to them? Are they getting those? If I’m seeing the person not moving very much, in my head, I’m like, okay, do I stop and say something?

So, it’s a lot going on in my brain and I can get in my head a lot. And that can absolutely I don’t want to say it takes the pleasure the away, but it almost dulls the senses because I’m so much in my head thinking about the production aspect of it and less in my body. I think that’s a good way to answer that question.

LEAH: Yeah. I think that’s a great answer. So, are these custom videos your primary income now?

SINN: Yeah. That’s definitely that shift that I was talking about before. So, I did go to making custom videos. And then, it was like now, my job is more focused on producing these videos and everything that goes into that and then connecting with the customers and the clients and everything that goes into that that my email inbox is a treacherous place.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: It is so full. I probably have some custom requests in there going back to July or August because I do so many things. So, where’s the primary form of income coming in? It’s almost like there isn’t a primary anymore. So, I got my OnlyFans, I have two clip stores, ManyVids, and Clips4sale. So, I create all these custom videos.

The person who’s paying me to produce the video is getting exactly their fantasy and the thing that they want to see in a video and that’s what they’re paying for. But I own the rights to the video. It’s my creation. And so, I take all those videos. And then, I’ll sell those in my clip store. They can pay for a video that’s exclusively theirs, but it costs three times the price. So, I haven’t had anybody take me up on that, which is good because content is honestly more valuable than cash at this point in my career for sure too.

I also create full length feature films that I sell, distribute through TROUBLEfilms and they’re for sale on my website. And then, they also go up on sites like Adult Empire. When they sell through there, I make a very, very, very small fraction of the price.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: But selling them through there also means that I can submit them for nominations for AVN Awards and things like that. And so, while it’s slightly unrealistic to think that I would win one for one of my productions because they’re just very low budget and I’m up against studios that have crazy high budgets like Wicked or something. They have $20,000 cameras. Mine does not cost that much and things like that. And there’s a whole crew of people that can do sets and can do specific type of lighting and make all these really beautiful cinematic porn movies. I don’t have access to that stuff, but it is good to be nominated just to be seen as, okay, this person is still producing. This person’s still making things. And they’re making stuff that’s at least quality enough to get a nomination. So, that’s nice.

And so, that is why those movies will end up on those sites. And what else? I have my stuff up on Adult Time has a streaming type of service that you pay for. So, the more time people spend watching the videos that I have up there, that’s how I make some money. So, I get money from there too.

And then, I still go and I do performances for other people. Those days are actually nice because it means I can just show up and do the performance and leave and not have the homework. But the homework is always moving. It’s always there. It’s just am I going to attend to it today or am I going to put it off for some day where I feel more like doing it? That’s the little dance that we do here.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: But the payoff is grand. Now, when I was just getting paid for my performances, my performance fee, it was nice. I made a decent living. I could take vacations and travel and stuff, but it was not growth financially.

And so, being the owner of the business, we don’t make residuals. That’s another myth of porn. People think somehow, we’re making residuals off of these movies that we’re in, not at all. If I perform for another company, I get the performance fee and that is the end of it. But now that I own my own content, a clip that I made 5 years ago, I could still be making a little profit off of it here and there.

But it’s really about having all the clips. I think I’m almost at around 1,000 clips in my clip stores. And so, just having that big catalog, it just keeps a certain amount of money comes in from each of those places. And so, it’s really just having my hands in all these little baskets and that’s what I try to tell people who are just getting into this type of sex works as well is like, please just don’t have only an OnlyFans, and then quit every other job and then be like, I’ve got enough money on my OnlyFans to sustain myself.

I just don’t think that’s smart because we already know that they can cut us off whenever they decide to. And I think that people need to be prepared for that. Almost inevitably, maybe not quite, but just knowing that that could happen at any time, we have to prepare ourselves with other contingencies. So, at least I knew when I said that, I was like it’s going to be a big cut to the money that I have coming in, but it’s not going to devastate me in my life.

LEAH: So, I want to ask a question that may be delicate, I’m not sure. You told me you’re 38.

SINN: 39.

LEAH: 39. You look like you’re in your earlier 30s.

SINN: Thank you.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: But this kind of work, I imagine has some type of age cut-off. So, how do you feel when you look toward the future? What are you imagining?

SINN: I also identify as a stoic, which is a philosophy that’s very grounded. And I’m hyperaware of the fact that my life can end at any moment. So, I have this thing where I do try to have wavy flexible plans-ish for the future or maybe ideas of where I might go with things when I find myself coming up on certain situations. But I don’t have these plans of first, this is going to happen, then this is going to happen, then that’s going to happen, and then we’ll do this, and then I’ll die.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: So, I more just think about directions that I might float towards. And I started payrolling myself a few years back. So, I started a 401(k). I’ve had a ROTH IRA for a few years before that even. As far as a career though, if I reach a point where I physically and/or mentally am not able to do this anymore or not able to really capitalize from it due to any number of factors, although they do make GILF porn, okay.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: I think that there’s absolutely no reason that I couldn’t shift a little more towards on being in the productions as much anymore. My husband and I can always just focus our energies more on hiring other people and making clips that just involve other people and not myself. And I can see myself pretty easily sliding into that if and when the time arises, if I’m lucky enough for that time to arise.

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LEAH: Do you wish your brain would stop yapping and making grocery lists, so you could focus on pleasure and even having an orgasm? It’s actually a pretty common complaint. We ask a lot of our brains to be efficient, effective, organized and to never drop any of the zillion balls that we’re carrying. But then, we also expect our brains to automatically switch off when it’s time for pleasure, so they don’t distract us.

Unfortunately, for most of us, it doesn’t really work that way. So, whether it’s you’re carrying the mom’s mental load, ADHD, keeping up with the big project that’s due next week or any of a million other reasons, we need to help our brains learn how to relax into pleasure. We may even need to teach them how to feel pleasure.

All of it is possible and it’s useful to have a guide who can see the bigger picture and help you navigate all the pitfalls that your brain has put in place trying to keep you safe from having to change. I would be honored to be your guide toward a more deeply fulfilling intimate life. I’m queer, kinky, and non-monogamy friendly and I’d love to talk with you on a free discovery call.

So, visit www.leahcarey.com/coaching to schedule yours. Again, that’s a free discovery call to find out if we’re a good fit and you can schedule it at www.leahcarey.com/coaching. That link is in the episode description on the app you’re listening in now. Back to the show!

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LEAH: What would you say to people who subscribe to the myth that anyone who is in sex work is there because they’re so desperately damaged or they’re being trafficked?

SINN: Yeah, the traffic thing, we have these organizations that did a rebranding because they saw the change happening, the cultural shift. And they realized they couldn’t call themselves Morality in Media anymore. They had to change their name to let’s stop trafficking. It’s all trafficking. Everyone’s being trafficked. And so, if you’re looking at porn, you’re looking at people who are being trafficked.

And that rebranding is extremely problematic. In fact, I find it somewhat misogynistic because then people are sitting in their ivory towers telling me what I desire for my own body and self and you’re shutting my voice down in order to amplify your own voice, which makes a lot of assumptions about people that you have never met. That’s just a small snippet of how I feel about the trafficking rhetoric and how it’s being used as a weapon.

But to those people who think that everyone who would engage in something like this is severely damaged or just absolutely must have childhood sexual trauma, I think if you took a survey of every human being let’s just say in this country, you would find that most people have some kind of sexual trauma from their youth. And while it does seem to skew slightly higher for people in sex work, that still doesn’t make it a rule across the board. But it also doesn’t mean that if you’ve experienced that sexual trauma that then you are a damaged and broken person for the rest of your life.

I think a lot of people can and do often work through work with that trauma as part of their story and their lives. And that doesn’t always have to inform what they choose to do and what they’re comfortable with doing and what they like doing, stuff like that. So, there’s that.

There’s also that I can speak for myself that I didn’t have that experience. That’s just not a part of my story, yet this all appealed to me at a pretty young age regardless. And I don’t like that people will tell me that my own story, that my own truth is invalid. And I’m just one person that I know so many of my colleagues who also don’t have that history, also don’t appreciate people speaking on their behalf and making assumptions about their reasons for doing whatever type of work they want to do. I think it’s just a really unhealthy view of sexuality in general.

That’s someone who is coming to the table with already all of these ideas in their head about what sex is, what sex should be, what it should be for other people. I think it’s misinformed. I think it’s unfair. I do wish always when it comes to sex work that people would be willing to listen to us without trying to make decisions on our behalf because a great example of this is when the SESTA-FOSTA happened a few years ago.

So, that was I believe 2018. The bill came in to Congress and all but two voted for it. And politically, I can see why Congress people felt that they had to vote for it. Who wanted to be the one that the Right could say, “Look, they didn’t even vote to pass trafficking thing?” and make a big deal out of it. You support sex trafficking then, I guess? So, I understand why they politically were almost put in a position of having to.

But as they were writing up this legislation, they didn’t talk to any sex workers. So, FOSTA was Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act and SESTA was Stop Exploitation Sex Trafficking Act, something like that. But what that did is it made it so that online spaces that sex workers would use to vet clients, to communicate with each other about clients, basically all the harm reduction, all of these spaces were immediately shut down when that bill passed. And all of us sex workers were like this is terrible legislation and it’s going to cause harm.

LEAH: It’s dangerous.

SINN: it’s dangerous. It’s going to cause massive harm on several different levels.

LEAH: People will die and are dying because of this legislation.

SINN: Yes. And here we are in 2022 and we now have several years to look back on. And John Oliver did an amazing segment on sex work. You can watch it on YouTube. Please do.

LEAH: I will put links to all of these things including an explainer about SESTA-FOSTA.

SINN: Yes, please. And now, we have the research to look back and see all the ways that it has caused more harm and the ways that it has made even detectives who are working on actual trafficking or actual child abuse have fewer resources now. They’re following routes that they normally would and hitting a wall. Whereas before, they would be able to follow this through to stop someone who’s actually being trafficked.

And I feel like I read somewhere that even one of the people who helped write this legislation because they wanted to make things better for people who had been victims of trafficking is now looking at it and saying, “I can see how this went wrong and I wish I could change it.”

If they would have invited sex workers to the table when they were writing the legislation, I can almost guarantee we would not be having the same problems. But we are often completely ignored, spoken over, spoken for without any consultations as to what our lives actually look like.

People just glom onto this picture they’ve got in their heads and then think of that as though it’s fact and true without even considering to just speak to us. We are smart. We are business people. We are thoughtful and intelligent. And when you just dismiss us as damn whores, then we’re missing out on evolution really as a society in my opinion.

LEAH: Yeah. That’s so beautifully said. Thank you. I also want to say that SESTA-FOSTA has affected people in my line of work as educators. Our spaces are not safe to do education work because it’s being conflated with pornography, which is fucking insane. And actually, I haven’t gone back to look at the terms of service recently, but I don’t know maybe six or eight months ago, I looked at Facebook’s terms of service around adult content, or maybe it was Meta, I don’t know, one of those.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: It was the villains to the story.

LEAH: The basic lesson was we know it’s important to talk about exploitation of people sexually. So, we’re not going to stop that, but anything that depicts pleasure of any type, we can’t get behind that. So, what that does is it means that all that we see on social networks that has to do with sex is about exploitation. It’s about trauma. It’s about people being taken advantage of, which only creates more fear.

SINN: And more trauma, absolutely. It’s just infuriating that social networks have for the most part, Twitter still lets me post all the porn, but I’m also shadow banned to oblivion as well. That thing that they claim to not do, no, I’m sorry, I’ve seen the numbers. You do it. But at least it’s still an available space for promotion.

But it’s like I got kicked off Facebook when I’d post pictures of myself in a bikini. Everything is covered. I made a separate account for my adult personality. That got shut down. I made a page for my adult personality. That got shut down. And when that got shut down, they also cancelled my personal account as well. And it was just, nope, sorry, we’ve made our decision and you can fuck off. I’m so grateful that I left Facebook in 2018 for a variety of reasons. And my life instantly got better.

[LAUGHTER]

SINN: But all that being said, in these online spaces, we can’t even take an educational approach or an academic approach. Trafficking a little bit has fallen out of favor, so now they’re talking about grooming. It’s always the children. Children are always used to push conservative agendas especially when it comes to sex.

And just teaching children about their bodies, teaching them the proper terminology for their body parts empowers them in so many really powerful ways to make boundaries around their body, to not succumb to some things that are easier to succumb to as a child when you don’t have knowledge.

LEAH: It doesn’t just empower them although that’s a huge piece of it, it literally reduces the amount of assault that happens.

SINN: Exactly. We have the numbers to prove it.

LEAH: We have data, yeah. A colleague and I wrote an op-ed for NBC News on exactly this topic and I’ll link that in the notes as well. I think we could probably talk for another six hours just on how frustrating how all this is. Yeah.

SINN: I know.

LEAH: So, Sinn, can you tell people where to find you? And I’ll make sure that all of that information is also in the show notes.

SINN: Awesome. Yeah, definitely. So, if you are interested in the stuff I make, I’d say www.sinn-sage.com is a really great place to start. I’ve got information about custom videos there. I have links to all my stores. I have photos and interviews, lots of interviews and podcasts and things like that. So, you can find a lot more Sinn Sage stuff there. I do all the things.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Okay, great. Sinn, this has been absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for your time and for being here.

SINN: Again, just my pleasure. I’m so grateful. So, thank you for letting me have this opportunity.

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LEAH: That’s it for today. Before we go, I want to remind you that the things you may have heard about your sexuality aren’t true. You are worthy. You are desirable. You are not broken. As a sex and intimacy coach, I will guide you in embracing the sexuality that is innately yours no matter what it looks like. To set up your free discovery call, go to www.leahcarey.com/coaching.

If you have questions or comments about anything you’ve heard on the show, call and leave a message at 720-GOOD-SEX. Full show notes and transcripts for this episode are at www.goodgirlstalk.com. And you can follow me @goodgirlstalk on the socials for more sex positive content. If you’re enjoying this show, please take a moment to leave a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or if you’re using another podcast app, go to www.ratethispodcast.com/goodgirls.

While listening to this show is free, producing it is not. If my work is meaningful to you and you have a few dollars to support it each month, I’ll gratefully accept your patronage at Patreon. Find out more and become a community member at www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex.

Good Girls Talk About Sex is produced by me Leah Carey and edited by Gretchen Kilby. I have additional administrative support from Lara O’Connor. Transcripts are produced by Jan Acielo. Until next time, here’s to your better sex life!

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