Sex is great but so is sleep – Jordan

LEAH: Welcome to Good Girls Talk About Sex. I am sex and intimacy coach Leah Carey. And this is a place to share conversations with all sorts of women about their experience of sexuality. These are unfiltered conversations between adult women talking about sex. If anything about the previous sentence offends you, turn back now! And if you’re looking for a trigger warning, you’re not going to get it from me. I believe that you are stronger than the trauma you have experienced. I have faith in your ability to deal with things that upset you. Sound good? Let’s start the show!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Hey friends. Get ready for a really good time with this episode. Jordan heard me when I guested on the Marriage & Martinis podcast and became a listener to this show. She reached out to me and said, “If you ever want to interview a young mom, I’m here for it.”

That was all I knew about her when I got on the line for this conversation. But as you’ll hear, Jordan and I hit it off like gangbusters immediately. I find her really interesting and fun, while also being really informative and wise, especially for a woman in her early twenties. She’s a birth doula and has a ton of interesting information to share about pregnancy and postpartum experiences.

After we finished recording, I started following her on Instagram and TikTok where she shares amazing content about pregnancy, breastfeeding and her popular series Reasons My Two Year Old Is Crying. But when we got on the line for this conversation, I didn’t know any of that yet. We recorded this interview in November 2020.

In the three months since, Jordan and I have become good friends and started another weekly show together on Instagram and I’ll tell you more about that at the end of the interview. During this conversation, you may notice some kid noises because that’s the reality of being a stay-at-home mom with two kids under the age of three. Jordan is a 23-year-old cisgender female who describes herself as white, straight, monogamous and married with two kids. She grew up in a Christian home and she describes her body as tall and lanky like a baby giraffe. I am so pleased to introduce Jordan!

Jo, welcome! I’m so excited to talk with you. We connected online and I have been really enjoying seeing some of your videos and pictures of your kids and stuff, so I’m thrilled to talk with you.

JORDAN: Thank you. I am so excited to be here. This is so fun. I love it.

LEAH: Yay!

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: Break or pop the podcast cherry, so to speak.

LEAH: Is this your first podcast interview?

JORDAN: Yeah, it is.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Oh, I’m so excited.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: I literally was just thinking about it probably a week ago like, “I should make a list of goals for the next year.” And I was like, “Ooh, being on a podcast would be so fun.” And then, two days later, we were chatting on Instagram. So, manifestation or whatever you want to call it, it worked.

LEAH: Love it.

JORDAN: Great.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Well, then let’s dive right in. And the first question I ask everyone is what is your first memory of sexual pleasure?

JORDAN: Oh, geez. I honestly probably couldn’t tell you. It was just suddenly a part of my life. And that probably didn’t even happen or I can’t really recall it really even happening until I was probably sixteen or seventeen. I mean, it might have happened earlier, but it wasn’t monumental enough to make any sort of memory.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yeah. So that’s interesting to me because in my mother’s generation, it would not have been unusual to get married young and have kids young. But in today’s culture, that is a little more unusual and that’s what you’ve done. So, you it sounds like didn’t have a ton of time for sexual exploration before you got married.

JORDAN: No. My body count is one and it is the guy that I am married to.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Wow.

JORDAN: I don’t know if that was entirely intentional. It just kind of happened that way.

LEAH: Yeah. Okay. So, before you turned sixteen or seventeen, had you discovered masturbation? Had you discovered your body at all or did that all happen in your mid-teens?

JORDAN: Oh, gosh, I must have been five or six. Very, very young. And I was super into and a huge part of my life up until I was probably twenty was being involved with horses, training horses. I ran the rodeo circuits all over Michigan for a long time. And I remember probably in one of my very first horseback riding classes or something. At the very end, they’re like, “Okay. Everybody’s going to take their saddles off of the horse and we’re going to ride bareback without any equipment on the horse for a few minutes to let them cool down.” And I remember riding this horse and just walking, nothing crazy, and feeling like I’m going to pee my pants right now.

LEAH: Right.

JORDAN: No clue what the heck was going on. And just being like, “I never want to not use a saddle ever again.”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: That was terrible. That was terrifying. I could have peed my pants in front of everybody. That would have been so embarrassing. And now looking back at it, “I’m like you dumb dumb.”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: Of course, you weren’t going to pee your pants.

LEAH: Yeah. But you had no way of knowing that then.

JORDAN: No. No idea.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, did you ever ride bareback again?

JORDAN: Yes, but nothing happened.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: It’s funny because some kids would have had that experience and would’ve been like, “I want to ride bareback every day” and then others are like, “That was scary.”

JORDAN: Yeah. No, I didn’t like it.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: We’ll put that in the category of non-intentional masturbation.

JORDAN: Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: And was the only thing that happened for you?

JORDAN: Yeah. For a very long time. There really wasn’t anything else going on.

LEAH: So, when you say around sixteen or seventeen, what happened then?

JORDAN: It was a shower head. I think I watched a movie or there was something and, in the movie, they referenced it. It was a part of the comedy. It was a part of a joke. And I thought, “Wait a second. I feel like I’ve heard this referenced before. I feel like I’ve heard this joke before. What the heck is that all about?”

Yeah, the first time I tried it, it was way too much, super intense, didn’t like it. And I was like, “No, no, no.” But then, of course, you start going through puberty and you have all these crazy hormones shifts and this desire to figure stuff out. And you’re like, “There’s got to be more to life than just sitting here like a bump on the log.”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And of course, curiosity killed the cat and I think that was the experience moving forward was that. And then, it probably wasn’t until I was really involved with my first sort of kind of boyfriend that he was very gung-ho about getting down and dirty in the backseat of the car.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And I was like, “Oh, okay. This is a thing that people do a lot. Good to know.”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, I want to get back to him. But first, what kinds of conversation were happening in your home around sex, sexuality, female sexuality?

JORDAN: So, growing up, I grew up in a very Christian home. I still am a Christian. I didn’t have a bad experience with the faith growing up. It was very positive, very loving environment. And so, the first introduction to any kind of sexual education that I had was when I was in fifth grade and we were doing that unit in science, the birds and the bees and the talks and whatever.

And I was going to a public school, so it wasn’t a Christian-based school. And so, my parents were hesitant about letting our teachers teach the public school system’s version of sex education before my parents had a chance to kind of lay down their basis for healthy sex in a Christen relationship or in a Christian home. And so, they wrote me a note to exclude me from that week to exclude me from that unit so I spent an hour a day in the library just chilling.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And then, I would get home and my mom and dad sat me down. And it was the most stereotypical birds and the bees talk. Zero warning. Zero lead up. My dad just sat me down and he’s like, “Where do you think babies come from?”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And I think I said, “Your belly button.”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And my dad’s like, “Okay. No.” And just hit me like a freight train. He’s like, “No. You came out of your mom’s vagina.”

LEAH: Did you get what a vagina was at that point?

JORDAN: Kind of. I had heard the word used. But if you had given me a pop quiz and been like, “Okay. Show me where the vagina is. Show me where your urethra is.” No, no idea. No clue. It was just the general area down there. And my mind was blown.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: I was like, “Hang on. Hold up.” So, within that conversation, it was just very black and white. This causes this causes this causes this, boom, a baby. So, that first birds and the bees talk was just talking about how sex creates children. There really wasn’t any talk of pleasure. There was no talk of the relationship side of sex. There was no fluidity in the conversation. It was very scientific and from there, I went to bed, I think. It was just, “All right. I have a penis. Your mom has a vagina. My penis goes in your mom’s vagina. I ejaculate. A baby is made and then, the baby is born out of the vagina.” And I was like, “Okay. That’s a lot.”

LEAH: That’s a lot of information.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: Yes.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And there was a little bit of talk afterward about how sex is made for a husband and a wife and it’s best kept inside a relationship of marriage and that’s what got intended. And then, bringing in the Biblical side of it. So, then, when I went back to school and all my friends were talking about sex, I would have like this knowledge in my head that, “Oh, it’s only meant for marriage and all this stuff.” That was it. That was the only talk of sex that we had in our house.

It was never viewed as taboo. My dad always made it very clear to us that we were more than welcome to ask him any questions, to bring anything up if we were curious about anything. Nothing was off limits. We were allowed to say anything and ask anything, but it was such a cringey subject for a fifth grader to go talk to her parents about that I never just brought it up again. I was like, “Okay. That’s it.”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: That’s the info that they have to give me. Good to know.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: What about when you got your period?

JORDAN: I didn’t tell anybody when I got my period for a year.

LEAH: Wow.

JORDAN: Yeah. Not because I was ashamed or because I didn’t want to tell anybody, but I don’t know. For some reason growing up, my period, the reproductive system, birth, none of it was weird. None of it really was a big deal. So, I got my period. I was seventeen. I got it a little later. We were up at our family’s lake house.

And so, it was the middle of summer running around in bathing suits and I was like, “What the heck is this going on?” And it took me a few hours for it to click. Like, “Oh, okay. So, I’m not dying. This is normal.” And I think I just slapped a pad on and called it good. And then, kind of kept it that way and just dealt with it on my own like, “Oh, yeah. Check that off the list. Next.”

And it wasn’t until about a year later, I think my mom was leaving for the store one day and she said, “Does anybody need anything?” And I was like, “Oh, yeah. Can you pick me up some tampons?” And she’s like, “Since when?”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And I was like, “I don’t know like last summer.” And she’s like, “Honey. Why didn’t you tell me?” I’m like, “I don’t know. I just forgot.”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Did it concern you that you started later? Were you waiting for it and wondering why it didn’t come?

JORDAN: I knew that all of my friends had already gotten it. And in my head, it was always just, it’ll eventually show up. And it eventually showed up, so it never concerned me that it arrived late. So, later I ended up getting diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome. I don’t know if that had anything to do with it in the get go or if that developed later.

But I had had my period for about a year and it wasn’t until I kind of started to clue my mom in on my cycle and what was going on that she started to say things like, “Well, that’s not normal” or “That’s not usually what happens.” And I think it was because in my head, your period was supposed to be not a big deal. It’s okay. Every woman goes through it. I was like, “Oh, this is normal. This is no big deal.” And then, looking back on it, I’m like, “No, Jo. That was not normal. That was a big deal.”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: What kinds of symptoms were you having?

JORDAN: I was getting my period every two weeks. I was getting very bad cramping, occasionally very heavy bleeding that would only last for a day or two and then disappear in the middle of my cycles. Once I started to tell my mom about this and it was a consistent thing, we finally made an appointment with her GYN and that’s when I went in and had a couple of appointments. She finally gave me an ultrasound and that’s when we found a nice little family of cysts hanging out on both of my ovaries. And she’s like, “Ah, yes. That explains a lot.”

LEAH: So, that’s really even more interesting/stunning that you were able to sort of hold this information to yourself and it doesn’t sound like you were keeping a secret. It sort of was what happened for you. But if you were bleeding every two weeks and there was major cramping going on with it, the fact that nobody noticed that is pretty surprising.

JORDAN: I mean, I’m the oldest of seven kids. There’s a lot going on.

LEAH: Oh, wow.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Okay, then.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: Yeah. There’s a lot going on and luckily, my parents raised us to be very independent. We were very self-sufficient from a pretty young age. I mean, yeah, maybe looking back on it, it’s a little weird that nobody noticed, but in the context of what my family unit looked like, it wasn’t that strange.

LEAH: Yeah, sure. So, once you had that diagnosis, what was the treatment for you?

JORDAN: Just the good old fashioned birth control. So, I was put on birth control when I was about eighteen and stayed on it for a couple of years, switching back and forth between a couple of different kinds. It was always just the once daily pill option. And it wasn’t until I was married that my husband started saying things like, “This isn’t working. You’re miserable. You’re obviously miserable. And I think you should stop taking this.” And I was like, “Okay.” I think I was just waiting to tell me that it was okay to stop taking them.

LEAH: Miserable in what way?

JORDAN: I was an anxiety monster. I was having major anxiety and depressive episodes. I was gaining and losing weight all over the place. Just the typical hormone roller coaster and I think because I had been put on birth control so early in my cycle, so early in my menstruation period of life, I didn’t realize or it never clicked that it was the pill doing it. To me, it was always like, “No, this is just what happens around my period and I get my period pretty often. So, yeah, I guess it makes sense. This is just normal.” Yeah, finally, my husband was like, “No. No, it’s not. I think we need to figure out something else.”

LEAH: Yeah. So, I know we’re going to be going completely out of chronological order of this story.

JORDAN: I’m fine with it. I’m fine with a zigzag operation here, yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: First of all, I assume the birth control put you on to a regular cycle?

JORDAN: It did. Yeah.

LEAH: But if you wanted to keep that regular cycle, did that mean that you felt like you were not going to be able to have kids?

JORDAN: That was a really interesting conversation and that was a very strange kind of unknown time when we decided that it was going to be a good idea for me to stop taking birth control. When we were dating, and we had a very whirlwind type of relationship. So, my husband’s name is Lee. From the time that I knew Lee existed to the time that we were married was a little under six months. Neither one of us likes to mess around. Both of us hated dating.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And so, we just kind of found another person that hated dating.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: We were like, “Do you want to never date ever again?”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And we got married. And now here we are, four years later with two kids. So, clearly, I was able to have children. But when we were first dating, that was a big talking point for both of us was, “Okay. If children cannot be a part of the picture, are you okay with that and am I okay with that? What is that look like moving forward?”

I remember even with my first date with my first “boyfriend.” I say boyfriend with quotations around it because it was very casual. It only lasted two months. But our first date with the guy that I don’t even see or talk to anymore, I told him, “Hey. Just so you know, I don’t think I can have children. So, if that’s a dealbreaker for you, I just want to put that out there right now.” Because I went into the dating season of my life with a lot of intention. Like I said, I don’t like to play around. I don’t like to play games. I was never attracted to the wishy washy he said she said kind of game of dating. I went into it all business.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: So, anybody I dated, I was like, “Just so you know, I’m dating because I want to find out who I’m going to marry. So, is that you? I don’t know. We’ll see.”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: I was very blunt and very forward. And when I met Lee and I told him that, he was like, “Yeah. Okay. Game. Me too.” And I’m like, “Awesome. Let’s go.”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And we went for it. But yes, when we were dating, that was a conversation and both of us were on the same page of, “Hey we’re very young. I don’t know if I want kids ever. I honestly don’t know right now.” And so, neither one of us wanted that to be a deciding factor in our relationship. If we were very certain about each other and there was this crazy unknown what if in the background, that was something that we were both comfortable kind of figuring out together in the future.

While we were dating, I ended up having what I believe was a chemical pregnancy where my period was super late, didn’t know why. I took a couple of tests, but they were negative, and then I randomly got a positive test, and then started my period a week later. So, I believe that was a chemical pregnancy. And so, there was this kind of looming question like, “Okay. If that test wasn’t faulty and if that was real, then there’s a very high possibility that I could get pregnant again. But there’s also a very strong possibility that I can’t.” So, it was again very unknown, but again, going back, he was like, “Hey. I think you should stop taking birth control.” And I said, “Okay. Well, you know what usually happens when you’re not taking birth control, right?”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And then, that started a whole slew of other kinds of conversations and we eventually settled on if I get pregnant, great. If I don’t get pregnant, great. If I were to get pregnant, being young parents was something that was desirable to both of us. And so, we kind of just went for it and I stopped taking birth control and we were not super trying, but I was also religiously tracking my cycles.

So, I knew exactly to the day when I was ovulating. I knew exactly when my period was going to start for a couple of months because I wanted to know if when I stopped birth control, would my cycle continue to stay regular? So, I was tracking everything up the wazoo, cervical positioning, mucus, basal body temperature. I was taking ovulation tests. I was taking pregnancy tests every single month. I needed to know every single detail.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And then, a month later, I got pregnant.

LEAH: Wow.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: Clearly, I can get pregnant.

LEAH: You are a fertile mama.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: I’m a very fertile mama. I come from a very fertile mama. My husband comes from a very fertile mama.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: Can’t say I’m super surprised, but yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Once you went off of the birth control, how did that affect your body in terms of the PCOS?

JORDAN: I have no idea honestly. I’m assuming it’s gone.

LEAH: Really? I didn’t know if that could happen.

JORDAN: I’ve never gone back to get any kind of testing or ultrasounds done to look for cysts. I have heard in the past from other doctors and from other women that used to have PCOS that sometimes pregnancy will cure it.

LEAH: Oh, interesting.

JORDAN: Almost like a total body reset. And so, if there’s something that’s causing the PCOS like a hormone imbalance, pregnancy can kind of recalibrate your body. It doesn’t happen for everybody but it does happen occasionally. And I’m thinking maybe that’s what happened to me because I got pregnant a second time.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And my cycle was relatively normal in between my first and second child.

LEAH: And the cramping issues, the severe cramping, was lessened as well?

JORDAN: Yeah. It definitely was.

LEAH: Wow.

JORDAN: Yeah, it was just kind of weird and strange. Granted, I did get pregnant very quickly after my second. And my kids are about nineteen months apart. So, I really only had five or six cycles in between the time my cycle returned after my first and I got pregnant with my second. But those five or six cycles were fairly normal. I had nothing crazy in terms of cramping and it wasn’t a super heavy flow. It felt like the most normal periods I ever had in my life.

LEAH: Oh, I’m pleased for you. I hope that continues.

JORDAN: Thank you. Me too.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, you’ve now had two kids and it sounds like you both come from large families, are you looking to have a large family yourself?

JORDAN: No. Yeah, I have six siblings. My husband only has one older sister. He has a half-sister. So, two sisters, one full and one half. So, in my terms, he comes from a small family.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And in his terms, I come from the Duggers.

LEAH: Yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: So, we both have very different ideas in terms of what our families look like in the past. But moving forward, we’re both very much on the same page in terms of what we want our family to look like. Right now, we’re both very happy with two. I would be more than happy to stick with two. But also, I know that people change their minds. We’re both very young, so if another one decides to swim its way up there.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: Great. Bring it on. I guess it’s happening.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, you mentioned before we started recording that your period has not returned yet since the birth of your second child. What will you do for birth control if you decide to use something when it does return?

JORDAN: Yeah. So, I use the Fertility Awareness Method. It goes by the Fertility Awareness Method or Natural Family Planning. It’s just using your body’s signals to understand your fertile cycles to pinpoint your fertile days and your non-fertile days, and then using that information to decide when or when not to have sex or when to use other forms of birth control like a condom. And when you’re consistent with it, it’s very, very effective. And it’s definitely my preferred method of birth control because it is the most hormone free, nothing has to go in my body and it’s just up to me and my body to tell me what to do when.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Imagine this. You’re in your comfiest, coziest pajamas, drinking a glass of wine and talking about sex toys. That’s exactly what my PJ parties for grownups are all about. Fun, comfort, connection and lots of talk about all things sexy. And if the isolation of COVID has got you feeling not so sexy, we can have that conversation too. Even if you’re lucky enough to be isolating with a partner or other loved ones, finding deep connection outside your pod can be difficult and can leave life feeling a bit flat.

Every time I host a PJ party, the participants talk about how nourishing it felt to spend time talking with other women about things they don’t have the space to talk about these days. One participant said that she talks with her partner about her sex life a lot, but she’d forgotten how much she misses talking to and getting support from other women. My PJ parties for grownups are a place for you to have the kind of conversations we have on this show to dish about the stuff that’s great in your sex life, commiserate about the things you wish were better and ask questions you would never dream to ask in the light of day.

I facilitate the two-hour gathering so it’s designed to help you feel safe, comfortable and connected. Each PJ party is limited to seven people, so there’s plenty of room for everyone to participate. And because consent is primary, you will never be pressured into talking about anything you’re not ready for. You can participate as much or as little as you’re comfortable with. You may begin as a group of strangers, but you might just meet your new best friend.

Registrations are currently open for a party on Wednesday, March 24 at 7 PM Pacific. Information and registration is at leahcarey.com/pjparty. That link is in the Show Notes in the app you’re listening on now and it’s leahcarey.com/pjparty. Spaces are limited, so register today. I hope to see you there.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: There ended up being so much to talk about around Jordan’s marriage that I decided to focus the episode on this part of her life and move the conversation about her life pre-marriage to the audio extras at Patreon this week. Over there, you’ll hear about her first boyfriend, where she drew the line between fooling around and having sex, learning to orgasm and that time her ex-boyfriend slept with her best friend. And of course, there’s also the full Lowdown Q & A. You absolutely don’t want to miss this one because Jordan talks at length about tandem breast feeding, her nine-month-old and her two-and-a-half-year-old and, oh my god, it’s amazing what our bodies are capable of! She also talks about sexual breast play with her husband while still breastfeeding her kids. Trust me, this is not only entertaining, it is highly informative.

With over a half hour of additional conversation with Jordan, there is tons more good girls talking about sex. You don’t have to pay to access the audio extras at Patreon. But you do need to create a user profile because my material is explicit and only available to people over 18. Thanks, Internet overlords. If these conversations are meaningful to you and you’d like to support me in bringing them to you each week, I will gratefully accept your patronage in Patreon in any amount. Every little bit helps. You can listen and become a community member at patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex. And that link is in the app you’re listening on now. And remember, I’m really just happy that you’re here. Thanks for being a listener. Now, let’s go back to Jordan.

[MUSIC]

JORDAN: So, my sister was dating this guy and we were living in Chicago and he lived in Michigan. And my sister’s boyfriend decided to come visit her for a weekend and he was going to bring a friend of his because his friend has a job interview in the city. And it was just all going to work out. We were all going to hang out in the weekend. It was going to be great.

And my sister told me these plans a day before they arrived and I was really mad at her because I was like, “This is going to be so weird. What? You and your boyfriend and me and some random guy? This sounds like you’re setting me up. I don’t want to be set up.” She’s like, “No. no. no. It’s fine. It’s not like that at all. He’s not coming here to see you. He’s coming here for something completely different. He has a girlfriend. They’ve been together for two plus years. Trust me, Jo, it’s not like that at all.”

I was like, “All right. All right. Fine. That’s fine.” So, we went into the city to meet up with them for the day. And, of course, my sister’s boyfriend comes walking into the restaurant. I’m like, “Oh, yeah. Okay. I know him.” And his friend follows in behind him. And I’m like, “Oh, shit. He’s really freaking good looking.”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And I was mad.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: He’s got a girlfriend. You’re going to make me hang out with this guy all day with a girlfriend? And I can’t do anything. Ugh. I was so mad.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And so, I was just kind of in a pissy mood the whole day, didn’t want to hang out with this guy just because I was so attracted to him. And I felt like trying to not flirt with him just felt so fake and weird. And so, we spent the whole day kind of keeping our distance from each other because I think he could tell that I was just poised off at him for some reason, but he couldn’t figure out why. And it wasn’t until later that night that we were all hanging out, and of course, my sister and her boyfriend ditched us and just left us to sit at a park somewhere. Like, “Okay, you guys talk. We’re going to go over here.”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: We got a little drunk. He was telling me all about his life and his girlfriend and the things that he does in his job, typical chitchat, but I’m a good half a bottle of Crown Royal deep.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And I turned him and I go, “You know what?” He’s like, “What?” “You should break up with your girlfriend.” It was that Ariana Grande song, break up with your girlfriend because I’m bored.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: 100% that’s what was going on. And he just kind of chuckled like, “Okay, all right.” And we kept talking about whatever. He kind of brushed it off. We hung out for another hour or so. And finally, I was like, “Hey. Quick question.” He’s like, “What? Again, what do you want?” And I’m like, “So, do you want to kiss me or no? Just tell me straight up.” And he goes, “Ugh. I mean, yeah.”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: I’m like, “Okay. You can if you want.” And he’s like, “Geez, fuck. Fine.” And that was the beginning of our relationship.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And he went home and he broke up with his girlfriend, and then asked me out. And then, we dated for a couple of months, and then got married. So, clearly, I’m not here to play games.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Clearly.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: And did your sister continue dating the other guy?

JORDAN: No. Not for very long.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, you and your then boyfriend now husband have decided that you’re going to be together. What was your sexual relationship did? Did you want for marriage to have intercourse?

JORDAN: No, we did not wait for marriage.

LEAH: Okay.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: We dated for a couple of weeks before we crossed into that territory. And again, like I was saying, my views on sex and what was acceptable and what was okay while still veering very far from what my parents had taught me and what they believed, mine had definitely changed. And I was by no means my husband’s first sexual partner, but he was mine.

And so, it just kind of organically or naturally happened where one night, you’re just cuddling and maybe kissing a little bit and then the next day, you can’t keep your hands off each other. When you first meet somebody, it’s literally all you can think about. It’s like, “How can my body touch your body a lot?”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: That’s all you want to think about.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And granted, he was also the first guy that I had been in a relationship with that I was heavily, heavily physically attracted to. I had very strong crushes growing up and, in my teens, and whatever, but it never reached dating. It never happened. And now, I’ve been told I had just come across as intimidating. I’m like, “All right. Fine. Sorry. Not my intention.”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And so, it wasn’t until I was actually in a relationship where it was safe and it was okay to pursue some kind of sexual relationship with somebody that I actually did.

LEAH: So, you said that you had learned some things and your mindset has changed. What was that process for you? What were the things that you learned and consumed that helped you to have a broader perspective?

JORDAN: From talking to a lot of other young married couples and every single one of them, regardless of whether they had waited until marriage or not, for the most part had different viewpoints on it. But there was always this common theme of, I just wish that there had been more acceptance of just even talking about sex before getting married, especially in the Christian community. Growing up, especially for girls unfortunately, it’s very kind of gender biased in church when it comes to talking about sex is that it’s dirty and disgusting and bad until you get married, and then it’s supposed to be this beautiful wonderful thing between a husband and a wife.

And I had seen friends of mine that I knew for a fact that waited until marriage and had this mindset of sex is dirty and disgusting. Don’t do it until you’re married, but then after you’re married, it’s great, have terrible, awful sexual relationships with their husbands. I say husbands because for the most part, I was talking with women just because they were my friends. And they were just having such a hard time and going into marriage not even understanding or knowing the basics of how sex works. And it was kind of crushing to me in a lot of ways because I knew that the sex wasn’t supposed to be dirty and disgusting and awful.

And I do have to thank my dad and my mom for instilling that knowledge within me from a young age that sex is not bad. They never told me that sex was bad. They never taught me that it was gross or that it was sinful and awful. They had just always taught me that it’s best saved for a monogamous relationship or, in their case, marriage. And so, I knew sex wasn’t supposed to be bad. It wasn’t supposed to be scary. It wasn’t supposed to be painful and shameful. And yet all of these women that I had been talking to that were my friends that were getting married just hated it.

And I think it just comes from a lack of education especially in the church. I mean, just because you’re a homeschooled Christian kid, which I was, doesn’t mean that you can’t be taught about sex. And so, it was at that point that I started doing as much research as I possibly could. Okay. Just starting from the basics. Biology. How does sex work? Past the point of penis and vagina equals baby.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: Give me some more. I spiraled into research mania, which then led me to learn more about myself in terms of PCOS and Natural Family Planning and the Fertility Awareness Method. What kinds of hormones are going through your body at different times? What do the different fluctuations look like? How to track everything? And suddenly, my mind just opened up like, “Wait a second. There’s way more to this whole sex thing than I’ve been taught.” And what the hell does that mean? And so, I was definitely going through all of that while I was dating this guy that is now my husband.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And yeah, as soon as I let myself understand and I let myself let go of this idea that sex is not bad, I was like, “Oh, interesting. Let’s explore this. Let’s figure that out.”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And it was a lot of fun to explore that and figure that out.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, was the sex good right away?

JORDAN: I wouldn’t call it good. I wouldn’t call it bad. It was just a thing that happened.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Was it fun right away?

JORDAN: Yeah. I thought it was fun. But a huge part of the reason it was fun was because it was with him.

LEAH: Sure.

JORDAN: Right. I think I’m very lucky in a sense and I don’t think a lot of women in my situation would hold this opinion, but I think I was very lucky that I was not my husband’s first sexual partner. He had had a decent string of monogamous girlfriends before me that sex was a regular part of their relationship and he brought all of the knowledge into that, into the bedroom. I went in blind. And luckily, he’s a very caring understanding, very communicative person and that is I think probably what hooked me.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: It’s like, “Oh, yeah. This is good. We’re just going to stay together because you can just figure this out.”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: “You tell me what to do please.”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yeah. So, how would you characterize your sexual relationship now? Well, first of all, do you get a lot of pleasure?

JORDAN: It’s interesting right now, specifically now because of where I am in the whole postpartum shitshow. And it happened with my first child too that’s happening now. My libido just kind of drops when I have a tiny baby. And I don’t know if you’d consider nine months tiny, but it’s tiny. It’s like you’re not getting a lot of sleep. You very rarely shower and a huge thing for me is at the end of the day, I feel very touched out. And so, I think there’s definitely less sex going on right now than there usually is and to be completely honest, I think both of us are very okay with that.

Being a father is also very overwhelming and as much as sex can be a form of self-care, I think not having sex can also be a form of self-care if that’s what your body and your mind needs. That’s going to be a stressor for you, don’t do it. And I think both of us when we’re very stressed out and when we’re very sleep deprived, it can turn into a stressor and luckily, both of us are on the same page when it comes to that. As great as sex is, going to sleep at 9 PM is also awesome.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yes. First of all, I would say yes, nine months is a very small baby because they’re still completely dependent on you. And to that end, so is your two-year-old. Maybe your two-year-old could walk around now.

JORDAN: And so, can the nine-month-old, unfortunately.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: But they’re still probably using your body like a jungle gym. If you’re still breastfeeding, you’re still a feeding station. Your body is putting out so much energy to take care of these little people. When you say at the end of the day, you’re touched out, that is not just like, “Oh, I just don’t feel like it. That is a real actual biological thing.”

JORDAN: Absolutely. And more people need to know about it.

LEAH: Exactly. I’m so glad that you mentioned that.

JORDAN: Yes, it’s a huge part of what I do. So, I’m a birth doula and a big part of what I talk to my clients about is what to expect postpartum and going beyond just the typical, “Oh, your milk will come in at this day. Expect to be bleeding for this long.”

I love talking to my clients about what I call the real shit, the real side of postpartum. It’s like, “You’re going to experience a lot of things that nobody’s going to tell you about. And I’m here to tell you about them.” And one of the things that I talk about is feeling touched out. And it’s okay to feel that way. And it’s usually what that feels like and here’s how you can handle it and make sure that your partner’s on the same page if you have partner and make sure that you’re aware of how to take care of yourself. Otherwise, you are going to get to the end of the day feeling touched out and not know how to kind of either whichever visual you want to use like empty that cup or fill that cup.

LEAH: Exactly.

JORDAN: And you’re just going to go to the next day either very empty or overflowing and you can’t function.

LEAH: And become resentful over time.

JORDAN: Yes. Very resentful.

LEAH: Extremely resentful.

JORDAN: Especially with a partner that is expecting more touches.

LEAH: Yes, exactly.

JORDAN: And you physically can’t give.

LEAH: Yeah. That turns into a sexless marriage. If it never gets dealt with in those first couple of years of life of the child, then the resentment just keeps building to the point where neither of you knows how to break through it.

JORDAN: Yes. Funny enough, I made a TikTok about it.

LEAH: Oh, yeah?

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And the best way I can describe it because I had a very hard time explaining to my husband what feeling touched out felt like because he just wasn’t experiencing and he didn’t have a baby like literally suckling at his teat all day. And so, I was just trying to explain it to him and the best way I could explain it was, “There’s a different feeling when you are giving a hug versus you are getting a hug.”

LEAH: Yes, exactly.

JORDAN: When you are giving somebody a hug, you are putting in emotional energy into that hug to deliver whatever that person needs in that moment. If it is to comfort somebody that is sad, you’re trying to cover them in this healing happy blanket. If you’re sharing somebody’s joy, you are allowing their joy to radiate somewhere else. If you’re giving a hug, you are expelling that emotional energy along with the physical energy it takes to physically wrap your arms around someone. There’s a lot of emotional energy that you’re wrapping around that person as well. Whereas, when you are getting a hug, you are on the receiving end of this emotional blanket that this person is wrapping you up in. And you can absorb it all in and you can take it all in and there’s not really a lot that you have to give in return.

And moms or dads or caretakers of children, all day long, are doing the equivalent of giving hugs. A two-year-old doesn’t understand how to give emotional energy to somebody. A mom or a dad, in my case I’m a stay-at-home mom, so a stay at home, is giving her children everything she has in terms of emotional energy in the form of touching all day long. So, you get to the end of the day and you’re like, “I physically have nothing left to give. It’s not that I don’t want to give it to you, I can’t. There is nothing here.”

And so, something that I’ve told my husband is, “If you are craving to be touched or touch me”, I enjoy rubbing his back, giving his massage. I don’t always have to be getting touch from him to feel love. You can give someone touch to feel love like I was just talking about. “If that’s something you’re craving and you just want that physical connection between the two of us, we don’t have to have sex and you can just give me helpful touches” is what I call them. Helpful touches, so the equivalent of giving a hug. It could be playing with their hair. It could be scratching their back. It could be just sitting there and holding them. It could be giving them a foot massage or helping them take a shower. It’s just all these little helpful touches that if your partner does have a physical connection need that needs to be met. That doesn’t need to equal sex. That can be so many other things and it could be beneficial to you, the person who is touched out as well.

LEAH: Yeah. This is something I talk about a lot with moms of young kids.

JORDAN: Yeah. I know.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: And I love the way that you’re talking about it. Yeah, and I love some of the examples you used. So, thank you.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: Well, thank you.

LEAH: One of the questions I wanted to ask you was about how having kids changed your experience of sex. So, not just the, “I’m too tired to have sex” piece, but did it change your actual physical experience of sex?

JORDAN: Oh, yeah. I say, for sure. Aside from just the physical side of when you first start having sex postpartum, just the sensations I think for me were definitely different and I think I could just chalk it all up to hormone fluctuation, but I think for the most part I definitely chalk it up to my understanding of what my body especially my reproductive system and my genitals and all that stuff are capable of and what I’ve seen them do.

I have a completely different relationships with them than I did before I got pregnant. And it’s definitely sometimes it’s a love hate relationship. I love them because I respect my body so much and I am so appreciative of it and I’ve seen it do miraculous wonderful things and that translates into sex as well. I’m like, “Hey, look at this thing. Look at what they can do.”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: And it also translates into a resentment sometimes towards my body of I feel betrayed by my body sometimes when I don’t get physically aroused as easily as I used to or my mind and my brain or whatever are super turned on, but my body is just not cooperating. I’m like, “You grew a damn human.”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: “You can’t wet things up a little bit? A little bit?”

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: Yeah, my entire mindset about my body has changed so much then. I don’t know. I like to look at it with humor, but I think it’s funny.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yeah. And what about prior to your first pregnancy, when you were still dealing with the PCOS, did that affect your sex life in any way?

JORDAN: I have no idea because I didn’t know any different. I feel like I’m still at a point in my life where I’ve never experienced my equilibrium, my homeostasis of sex because when I first started having sex, I was on a rollercoaster of birth control and I was trying multiple kinds and I was switching between prescriptions all the time. And then, once I wasn’t on birth control, I was pregnant months later. And so, I went from being on birth control to experiencing the coming off of birth control to suddenly being pregnant to now you’re postpartum to now you’re pregnant again and now I’m postpartum again. So, I feel like I still have yet to experience, “This is what normal looks like.” I have no idea.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: So, yeah, I couldn’t tell you if PCOS affected my sex life at all. It certainly didn’t feel like it did. I had a lot of fun. Everything seemed great.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: For all I know, I was missing something and I didn’t know.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Given that you haven’t had that sort of period of stabilization, let’s say look five years into the future, your kids are a little bit older. We’re assuming you haven’t popped out a third one at this point.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: What do you hope it will look like?

JORDAN: I just think I hope to make sex a priority again because that’s not something that I’ve been able to experience for the last couple of years, regardless of whether I want it to be a priority or not. Just life has made it very hard to do so. And I’m sure my husband would be very happy if I made sex a priority.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: But yeah, five years down the road, I would love for it to become just a spontaneous thing again. Whereas, right now it has to be very intentional.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: We have to make sure that we go to bed before we’re tired and we have to make sure that the kids are definitely asleep.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: There has to be a checklist of things to run through before it can happen. Whereas, beforehand, we’d just be sitting on the couch doing nothing and suddenly having sex. It’s just kind of like, “Bam!” I can’t have it anymore because the two year old’s going to run around the corner asking for us to put Frozen on. You can’t do that anymore.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: So, I would love for the spontaneity to return a little bit because that’s just fun.

LEAH: Yeah. How do you want to raise your kids around sex and sexuality? What do you want to talk to them about? What do you want them to learn?

JORDAN: I love this question because it’s something that my husband and I have talked about extensively. Raising boys is something that I consider to be an extreme honor especially in today’s climate and I’m so grateful for this shift, but because there’s been such a huge shift towards feminism and equality and when it comes to sex, focusing on what consent means and no means no and starting to teach this to children younger, I absolutely love that this is the environment I’m raising my boys in. But I also have to remember that with that shift toward feminism and with that shift toward equality, I have to make sure that my sons’ masculinity is still celebrated. Should they grow up to be masculine people.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: I have to make sure that that masculinity is celebrated and within that comes the sex talk and within that comes teaching consent and within that comes teaching that you might make mistakes growing up when it comes sex. You might be with somebody that you regret being with. You might be with somebody that doesn’t treat you the way that I taught you to be treated and to treat other people.

And I hope that I raise them and my husband raises them to not find themselves in a situation where they aren’t being appreciated and if I find out that my son has sex with a woman and she did not feel appreciated, I’m going to have a field day because ugh, raising boys in today’s climate is a blessing and a curse.

Yeah, when it comes down to the nitty gritty of it, my main goal is sex will never be a taboo subject in my house. It’s always going to be brought up as just a regular conversation. I don’t want it to feel scary. I don’t want it to feel like this sit-down interrogation. I don’t really plan on giving the traditional birds and the bees talk because I don’t plan on ever lying to my children.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: As they ask me questions growing up, I plan to answer them honestly at a level that they can understand. And so, I just hope for it to be an environment in my house of the same way that you talk with your children about what college they’re going to, I want to talk to them about what body autonomy means and what consent means and what healthy sex looks like and what a violation looks like and what rape means. Everything is going to be out on the table. There will not be anything that I keep my children in dark about because I think that that breeds ignorance and I think that that breeds the environment for something to go terribly, terribly wrong in their future.

LEAH: Yeah.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: And now, it’s time for the Lowdown, the things we’re dying to know but would usually be too polite to ask any good girl.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Do you have hair down there or are you bare?

JORDAN: Right now, I don’t, but usually I do.

LEAH: What made you go bare?

JORDAN: I needed an excuse to take a long shower.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: This is mom life, huh?

JORDAN: It really is.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: If I stand here and stare at the wall in the steam with my shower, it feels like I’m wasting time.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: If I put this time to good use, I’m sure my husband would appreciate it and I can just stay in here for a few more minutes.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Right. That’s awesome.

JORDAN: Yeah. But I usually do not because it’s a choice.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: I’m usually rushed in the shower.

LEAH: Do you think it’s generally easy or challenging for you to orgasm?

JORDAN: I’d say it’s relatively easy. Yeah. If I’m having a difficult time, I can identify the reason why.

LEAH: And is it usually emotional, physical, mental?

JORDAN: I’m usually tired.

LEAH: Have you ever faked an orgasm?

JORDAN: Yeah. I used to a lot.

LEAH: With your current husband?

JORDAN: Mm-hmm.

LEAH: And what stopped? What changed?

JORDAN: He was very suspicious that I was and so, he brought it up. He was like, “Do you ever fake it?” And I was like, “Yeah.” And he’s like, “Why?” Because sometimes I’m just tired or I can tell that I’m not going to finish or I don’t know I don’t want to kill the mood. And his answer, “Oh my gosh, but faking it is like the biggest mood killer ever.”

LEAH: Oh, good man.

JORDAN: And I’m like, “Okay. That’s fair.” So, I had to break the habit, but I don’t do that anymore. I’m sober of faking.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: I love it. We should make another twelve-step group.

JORDAN: Ugh, perfect.

LEAH: Fakers Anonymous.

JORDAN: Fakers Anonymous.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: We should start a podcast and call it Fakers Anonymous.

LEAH: Yeah. I love it.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: And I want to be your first guest.

JORDAN: Deal.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Jo, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for this conversation. I really appreciate not just how open you are, but how much fun you are.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: Well, thanks.

LEAH: Yeah.

JORDAN: Thank you.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, I mentioned that I’ve watched some of your videos. Where can people go to find your videos?

JORDAN: So, my username on both Instagram and TikTok is at jothemama. And you can find me on Instagram, you can find me on TikTok. And I like to post just funny relatable both mom, young mom, young women content. I try to keep it a little bit educational, but mostly just fun.

LEAH: Yeah. And I have to say, I’m not a mom. I’m not a young mom. I’m not in my twenties, but I’ve really been enjoying this stuff.

[LAUGHTER]

JORDAN: Well, thank you.

LEAH: Yes. So, I’ll put those links into the Show Notes and thank you so much for doing this.

JORDAN: Thank you so much. This has been so fun.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: As I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, Jordan and I have now started a weekly conversation on Instagram to talk about all things womanhood related – we’re talking about sex and relationships, motherhood, pregnancy, breastfeeding, and anything else that sparks our attention.

Each week we’ll have a topic to start with, but the conversation can go anywhere.  We want the conversation to be open to everyone, so come in with your thoughts and questions and drop them in the comments.  Or come just to listen – as we say in the sex positive community, “Observation is participation.”

Jordan and I are hosting our weekly conversation called “A Women’s Confab” on Fridays at 9 pm Eastern / 6 pm Pacific on Instagram Live, and then it will be archived on IGTV.

Again, the show is in “A Women’s Confab” on Fridays at 9 pm Eastern / 6 pm Pacific.  Follow me at @goodgirlstalk and Jordan at @jothemama to be notified when we go live each week.

Hope to talk to you there!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: That’s it for today. Good Girls Talk About Sex is produced by me, Leah Carey, and edited by Gretchen Kilby. I have additional administrative support from Lara O’Connor and Maria Franco. Transcripts are produced by Jan Acielo.

And I’m incredibly grateful for the financial support from Good Girls Talk About Sex community members at Patreon. If you’d like to support me in telling these stories and answering your questions, head over to www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex. You can find Show Notes and Show Transcripts at www.goodgirlstalk.com. To ask a question about your sex life, your desires or anything to do with female sexuality, call and leave a message at 720-GOOD-SEX.

And before we go, I want to remind you that the things you’ve probably heard about your sexuality are not true. You are worthy. You are desirable. You are not broken. I work with women just like you to reflect their true sexual nature back to them without the judgement, shame or fear that can get in the way of us seeing it for ourselves. As a coach and PJ party hostess, I will guide you in embracing the sexuality that is innately yours no matter what it looks like. I’m here to help you sink so deeply into your true sexuality that the version of yourself that was scared to speak up for her own needs feels like a mirage from another lifetime.

Until next time, here’s to your better sex life!

[MUSIC]