I have panic attacks during oral sex – Coaching Savy

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LEAH: Welcome to Good Girls Talk About Sex. I am sex and intimacy coach, Leah Carey. And this is a place to share conversations with all sorts of women about their experience of sexuality. These are unfiltered conversations between adult women talking about sex. If anything about the previous sentence offends, you turn back now! And if you’re looking for a trigger warning, you’re not going to get it from me. I believe that you are stronger than the trauma you have experienced. I have faith in your ability to deal with things that upset you. Sound good? Let’s start the show.

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LEAH: Hey, friends. I’m back with another listener coaching session. When I announced a couple months ago that I was going to do these coaching sessions on the podcast, I was so pleased with the response. I got several applications the same day that episode dropped into the feed.

One of those immediate responses was from Savy, today’s guest. She said she’d like to talk about getting comfortable with her own genitalia and having sex in a bigger body. She added, “I’ve been listening to the podcast for a while. And I’ve implemented some of the things talked about and I’ve gained confidence. Now, I’d like to get some help with things more specific to my experience.” As I said to Savy, while I’m thrilled to be speaking directly to her specific experience, I bet there are going to be a lot of people listening who are dealing with these same issues.

Savy is a 34-year-old cisgender woman who says that she’s fluid in her appearance, sometimes appearing more masculine and sometimes more feminine. And she’s comfortable with both. She describes herself as white, bisexual, and open to any kind of relationship style that has open communication. She grew up in a strict Roman Catholic family and is now agnostic. And she describes her body as infinifat. And you’ll hear more about that in our conversation.

These laser coaching sessions have been so much fun to record. And I’m getting great feedback from you about them, so let’s keep it going. If you’re interested in doing a free laser coaching session with me for the podcast, go to www.goodgirlstalk.com/podcastcoaching and send me your info.

One technical note before we get started. You’ll hear Savy’s cat meowing and playing in the background occasionally, which I have to admit, I find completely charming. But there’s also some noise in the audio that I did not notice while we were recording. I’ve done my best to mitigate it, though, as you know, I’m doing my own editing right now, and I am far from professional, but everything is still perfectly audible. So, let’s get into it with Savy.

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LEAH: Savy, I’m so happy to have you here today. You contacted me to let me know that you’d like to talk about feeling more comfortable in a large body and getting comfortable with your genitalia. Do I have that correct?

SAVY: Yes, you do.

LEAH: All right. So, why don’t you tell me a little bit about how these issues are showing up for you and what specifically is the difficulty that you want to talk about today?

SAVY: Mainly being somebody that has been in a very large body for most of her life, I don’t feel like I’ve had the typical love life that everybody else or my peers that I know of around me have had. I didn’t kiss anybody until I was in my mid-20s. I have had one very short, brief relationship. I just seemed to come into pitfalls of a lot of fat phobia, a lot of just judgment from the outside world. And for a very long time, I didn’t even realize that it was internalized as well.

So, specifically over the past five years, I have been very much working on unlearning all of that stuff and becoming just more comfortable and confident with the person that I am. I’ve always been somebody who has a very high sex drive, really likes sexual pleasure, and have been very comfortable with masturbating and my own body when it comes to pleasure, one-on-one with myself from a young age.

And really because I don’t get approached socially a lot when it comes to romantic relationships, a lot of my interactions have been online, so being able to either go on dating apps or way back when Craigslist could let you post, yes.

[LAUGHTER]

SAVY: That was really the only way that I was able to see if anybody was interested in any sort of sexual contact or sexual touch, so very much not knowing how to talk about what I wanted and having some interactions where I was just really uncomfortable. And I’ve come to find that a lot of times now, even though I want to enjoy sexual pleasure and I want to have sensual touch with somebody, I very much turn into placating for them, like, okay, as long as you feel good, it’ll be fine. I could take care of myself afterwards, or just being very dismissive of myself.

And now, I’m at a point where I have met a few people that are interested in playing and having a little bit of kinky fun and exploring. And I have had situations where literally while I was with somebody, them either touching my genitalia, my vulva, or them wanting to bring their face down towards my vulva, I almost had panic attacks or would tell them, “No, stop, we’re not doing that.” And just being very, very uncomfortable all of a sudden out of nowhere and not really liking having that reaction in the middle of a really fun time.

LEAH: Sure. That is a great place to start from. You’ve just given me a ton of information. And I want to go in and put a pin in a couple of things that you’ve said. First of all, one piece of information that you gave me before we hit record was that you identify as being in an infinifat body.

So, for anybody who’s not familiar with this language, this is the fat activist language or the fat acceptance language around body shapes. I don’t want to put words in your mouth, how would you categorize infinifat for yourself?

SAVY: Infinifat for me is somebody who is of a very large body size, somebody who struggles to find things in the world that fit them, even stuff like fitting in a car properly or fitting on an airplane seat where the world is not constructed around somebody of my body size. It’s not necessarily for me. It’s not like a number, like a weight. But it’s basically outside what even the now more accepting terminology of plus size is, somebody who is in a much larger body than what most people even see with marketing with larger people in them.

LEAH: Great. Thank you for clarifying that. There are a couple of different things going on here. When you said you want to be having pleasure, but then you end up placating your partner, that is the result of a whole bunch of different pieces of messaging.

The first is, let’s just call a thing a thing. Patriarchy, which just has taught us, as we grew up in little girl bodies, that it was our job to take care of people, to make sure that they were happy and fulfilled and all of those things and that our needs came second, if at all. There’s the safety piece of it. And I’m making an assumption that most of your sexual partners to this point have been men. Is that a fair assumption?

SAVY: Yes. I haven’t had the opportunity to have any sexual relations with a female-identifying person.

LEAH: Okay. So, when you’re in a space where you are the person in a marginalized body and the other person is presumably stronger than you are, even if it’s not front of mind, there absolutely is a power dynamic and a risk profile that goes with that.

So, there is going to be a part of your brain that even if it’s way in the background going, I need to make sure they’re satisfied because that’s the way I make sure that I stay safe. And if I’m taking too long to be satisfied or if I’m asking for too much, they’re going to reject me. I don’t want to be rejected. And so, I’m going to back off on any requests that I might have.

And then, you’re also dealing with the part of being in a marginalized body so that you have also all of those internalized fat phobic thoughts. And I, again, don’t want to put words in your mouth, but I’m just going to say some of the general messages that we get.

Big bodies are gross. Big bodies might smell bad. Big bodies might not be clean. Big bodies might crush you. We get a lot of messages. None of those things are necessarily true about any given person. But when you’re one-on-one with somebody in bed, your brain doesn’t know that. Your brain is doing everything it can to not be rejected. Does that make sense so far?

SAVY: Yes, it’s very much ringing true.

LEAH: Okay. Have you had an experience where you have been actively with somebody engaging sexually and they have rejected you in the middle of the act?

SAVY: Yes.

LEAH: Okay. So, that’s not something that your brain is making up out of nothing.

SAVY: Correct.

LEAH: So, we need to give your brain some grace for the fact that it’s working overtime. Yeah?

[LAUGHTER]

SAVY: Yes.

LEAH: Okay. So, let’s talk a little bit about this experience where somebody is moving in the direction of oral sex and you freeze up or you go into a panic state. Can you remember in the minutes leading up to that, what else was going on? What kinds of play were you doing?

SAVY: Very much just light touch, erotic touch, just trying to see what feels best. I personally really like deep pressure. And so, I’ve come to find that doing lots of light touch beforehand is really great because you get all the blood, the sensation to your skin. And then, you get deep pressure, somebody laying on you or pushing down onto you and it feels a lot better or I feel that that feels really great and being able to use anything, hands, mouth.

Most of the time, I actually really do enjoy giving oral sex as well. I like doing that. That’s very fun for me. That’s very powerful for me, too. And the thing that always pops into my head, especially in those instances, is that I’ve never received oral sex before. I’m very interested in it. But the instances where I have been rejected during sex have been when I have asked for oral sex before and being told, “No, thanks,” or “No, I don’t do that,” or just some dismissal. “No, not going to do that.”

And then, now in the two instances that I have had somebody be like, “Okay. I want to do that,” or at least show me that they were interested in doing that, that’s when I would freeze up. It would tightness in my chest, become very shallow breathing, and that very panicky feeling, like, oh, God, if they go down on me and I smell or they don’t like the way that I taste or because of my anatomy, they can’t find my clitoris, or they can’t find where they actually want to go. And that’s the moment where I’m like, yeah, I don’t think I can handle that. I don’t think I can actually have somebody do that in the moment and be like, “Yeah, I can’t do this.”

LEAH: Sure. So, you have just laid out something that makes complete sense. It’s something you’re interested in. There have been experiences where somebody started and then rejected. And now, somebody starts down that pathway and your brain starts putting up all of the alarm bells. No, not doing that because I might get rejected.

And for some of those reasons, the smelling thing and the taste thing are just universal. Not every woman deals with that, but that is something that goes across race, age, body size, whatever. Do you think that when somebody is hitting on you or wooing you, trying to get you to go to bed with them, take your clothes off, do you think that they are unaware of your size?

SAVY: Yes, because that has not happened in person. It has all happened online. I am now in the process of wanting to weed out people that might not be interested or just trying to hook up just to hook up. I definitely have stated that, “Hey, just to let you know, I am somebody in a very large body. Are you aware of that? I completely understand if that isn’t your thing. That’s not for everybody. But I want to be honest about it.”

I also don’t take very many pictures of myself. Most of the time, it’s a headshot. Most of the time, it’s with my dog. I just don’t have a lot of pictures of myself because I am still learning to accept the visual aspect of seeing all of myself, not just certain parts of myself or certain angles of myself, I should say.

So, a lot of people when I first initiate and we’re just chatting, I don’t feel like they know that I’m in a bigger body or a much larger body than most people I have seen. And so, yeah, it’s very much now I’m clear and upfront about it. So, that’s a step that I’ve taken to make myself feel a little bit more comfortable and confident. Just being like, “Hey, this is what’s going on.”

And then, to see it actually written down because it’s usually texting or in some form of communication that way, that says, “That’s not a problem for me, or I don’t judge like that, or I’m still very interested,” so getting a very clear response. And then I can put that bit behind me or that worry can pop out of my head.

LEAH: By the time you are sharing space with somebody, and I don’t know what your dating routines are, but by the time you’re ready to take your clothing off with somebody, do you think that your body is going to come as a surprise to them?

SAVY: No, it would be very hard to hide my body, even in clothing, so no. Once I’m in the space with somebody and actually I have no problems, I’m not self-conscious about being naked around somebody. I actually grew up with an aunt who would take us to a nudist colony. So, just used to being in naked spaces.

But, yeah, being in the space with somebody, undressing, I feel actually very confident and very sensual in that moment, too, because I don’t get to do that with a lot of people. So, to even be at that point, I’m excited. I want to do this. I’m excited to just play and explore with the person that’s with me. And then, it comes to either oral sex or even just starting to try and initiate penetrative sex, too, where I’m just like, okay, here we go. Here’s the most intimate part of myself. And I don’t know how they’re going to react to it.

LEAH: Okay. So, this is why I’m pursuing this line of questioning about, do you think your body is a surprise to them? Because by the time they get to either penetration or oral sex, your body is not a surprise to them. Like you said, your body’s shape and size is pretty noticeable, I would assume, even when you’re clothed.

You’ve now taken your clothing off and are being sensual, intimate, sexual, whatever with this other person. By the time they’re headed toward genitals, you are not a surprise. So, the idea that they might get down there and think, “Whoa, I didn’t know what I was getting into,” is a lie that your brain has made up. I completely understand why your brain made that lie up, but it is a lie. Does that make sense?

SAVY: Okay. No, it does. And hearing it in plain English like that, it does make me go, oh, yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yeah. We get so all up in our head about how we think other people are going to judge us, but because we’re so in our head, we can’t see how ridiculous those things are that we think we’re going to be judged about. And we all do it. So. you are very much not alone in this.

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LEAH: Do you wish your partner would touch you differently, but you’re not sure how to bring it up or what to say? I get it. Until a few years ago, I couldn’t imagine asking for anything I wanted. I thought I wasn’t allowed to have wants or needs. I thought good girls laid back and accepted what they got. I thought if I asked for something outside the regular repertoire, it would make my partner think that I was open for anything. And then, they’d start pressuring me for extreme things I definitely didn’t want.

I built it up in my head to the point that it was hard for me to communicate at all during sex. Instead, I played the dead fish game, laying on my back and waiting for it to be over. Even those times when someone said, “What do you want?” I was so used to not speaking that I didn’t know how to ask for anything. And I was pretty sure that they wanted an answer that could be done for 30 seconds before they got on to whatever they wanted to do, which made it even more unappealing to build up the courage to ask for what I wanted.

All of that changed when I started learning that I was allowed to have a voice during sex, that I wasn’t doomed to a lifetime of whatever anyone else wanted to do to me just because I was born female. I can help you take the same journey to finding your voice because you deserve a deeply fulfilling, intimate life. And you can have it.

I would be honored to be your coach on the journey. I am queer, kinky and non-monogamy friendly. To find out if we’re a good match, visit www.leahcarey.com/coaching. Again, that’s www.leahcarey.com/coaching to book your free discovery call. And that link is in the episode description on the app you’re listening in now.

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LEAH: So, the concern that somebody is going to get into the act and suddenly be like, “Whoa, I didn’t know I was going to be with a fat person,” that’s just not how this works. It is possible that somebody will get into it and decide that this isn’t for me, but that has nothing to do with your body. That could happen to any of us at any moment any time, that somebody’s brain, they’re in the middle of something and all of a sudden. they’re like, “You know what? No, not for me.”

That has absolutely nothing to do with you. You haven’t done anything wrong. You haven’t created a bad situation. You haven’t tricked them, none of that. That is about them. And if that happens, I know that it’s real painful in the moment and uncomfortable and brings up all of those thoughts and judgments. But should that happen, I want you to go back and listen to this tape and remind yourself that this has absolutely nothing to do with you. Yeah?

SAVY: Yeah.

LEAH: So, I’ve just said a bunch of stuff. How is that landing with you? What are you thinking right now?

SAVY: Actually, the way that you’re saying it makes a lot of sense. And I’ve actually done a lot of CPT therapy work for other situations. And my hard time is believing things that don’t have evidence. So, collecting things that have concrete evidence for me to point at or to listen to and say, “See? This is you making up or this is your brain telling you this, it’s not real or this is not about you.” So, even the terminology that you’re using is hitting home for me.

And it also speaks to me on an emotional level for me because I also identify as a very empathetic person. So, not letting, because that implies giving somebody permission, when I don’t want to step on anybody’s toes whenever it comes to anything. If somebody is uncomfortable in a situation, most of the time, I can remove my own feelings about it. But because I’ve been rejected in these situations before I had these tools, now I have the lies and the pattern of it telling me. But definitely, what you’re talking about gives me space to be able to say, okay, that was uncomfortable for them, but that doesn’t have to mean that it’s about me.

LEAH: It’s got nothing to do with you.

SAVY: It’s about them.

LEAH: Yes. Excellent. I’m really glad to hear that. So, one of the things that I heard you say is that you’re not really sure how to talk about what you want and that one of the things that that leads to is this placating of the other person and making sure they get what they want without necessarily taking care of your needs. So, let’s talk for a minute about what your needs are and what it is that you would like to be experiencing.

SAVY: For me, I don’t really enjoy penetrative sex all that much. I like the sensation, but I’ve never orgasmed from it. It’s not something that builds to something that makes me feel really good. And also, from a mental standpoint, it very much is just, okay, this feels good for you. That’s fine. That’s fine.

LEAH: You are not alone in that.

[LAUGHTER]

SAVY: Yeah. It doesn’t hurt me. It doesn’t harm me. I’m not uncomfortable with it, but I am not enjoying it or I’m not part of what’s going on with the sex partners that I’ve had. Yeah. This is the stuff for them. So, for me, I very much want to do more of the light touch or different sensations or using different tools, implements like crops or something soft to something that’s a little bit more harsh or temperature play.

That stuff really intrigues me because it gets me out of my head. And it’s more in my body and enjoying what’s going on in the moment and being more about then not worrying about what I’m doing for the other person, but my partner paying attention to me and seeing what I like, and then trying to see how you can make it feel better and wanting just that type of connection with somebody where it’s I want to do this. It’s not quite the typical of what most people think sex is because it’s not just about penetration. It’s not just about an orgasm. It’s like I want to feel how good it can be before orgasm, basically.

LEAH: Yeah. So, it may not be the “typical” thing that people think of as sex. But I bet if we surveyed, say, 100 women or people who grew up in little girl bodies, a huge percentage of them would say that they are very, very, very, very interested in the same thing you’re describing, but nobody knows how to ask for it.

Let me say some of the most powerful sexual experiences I have had have been this type of experience where I was the center of attention. And I was not expected to reciprocate in any way. It was just about me receiving and experiencing sensation. And I think that that’s really what you’re looking for. Are any of the people who you’re seeing becoming regular partners, or are you mostly doing one-offs kind of things with people?

SAVY: As of right now, it’s really only one-offs. It’s not much more interaction after that. I’m becoming a little bit more selective about my process. So, it weeds out a lot of people. But I recently did connect with somebody online. He lives farther away from me, about 200 miles, sadly. But I’m in a rural area anyway, so everybody’s really about 200 miles away from me.

[LAUGHTER]

SAVY: But because I’ve listened to Good Girls Talk About Sex. I know about the STARS talk now and actually have some standards. And so, instead of it just being a conversation about escalating and saying the right things to get somebody basically horny enough to be like, “Okay, let’s hook up, or let’s go on a date and then see if we want to do this.” Actually sitting down and being like, “Hey, I’m not really interested in P in V. That’s not really Interesting for me.”

LEAH: Really good job.

[LAUGHTER]

SAVY: So, there is one person that definitely, if he is in my neck of the woods, which he tends to be, he said a few times a year, I am very much interested in continuing a relationship and being able to communicate more about what we could do together so that then it’s both really fun and beneficial for both of us.

He’s very non-judgmental. I was upfront and told him, “I’m somebody in a very large body.” And he was the first person to tell me that was like, “Oh, I don’t judge people on that. I judge on connection.” So, I do have one person that I’m very interested in to continue doing stuff with. But most of the time it’s one-offs or we go on a date. If I will try to either initiate sex and they say, “No, thanks,” or we will have sex and then I get ghosted. They just don’t contact me afterwards.

LEAH: I’m sorry. I imagine that that is painful.

SAVY: Yes. And also, I don’t have a lot of fun with them.

LEAH: That’s fair.

SAVY: For me, I wouldn’t really want to initiate another encounter with the handful of people that I have been with.

LEAH: Okay. So, the reason that I ask that about whether you have ongoing or one-offs is because this kind of exploration works nicely with people who you have an ongoing relationship with. It’s not impossible, but it would be more challenging to say to somebody who you’re expecting to have a one-night stand with, “Hey, how about you just touch me and I’m not going to touch you back?”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: That might be a hard sell. But if you have an ongoing connection with somebody and you say, “Here is something I would really like to explore. Would you be willing to explore this with me?” Chances are pretty decent that they’ll say yes. Now, I understand that the pool of people who I choose from is maybe different than you have in rural America.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: No, let me say that differently. Almost every man I’ve ever suggested that to has been really excited by the idea because men get really tired of having to decide and lead everything. I apologize. I’m using the word “male” and “female” in a very binary way here.

But when a woman shows up and says, “Here’s what I want. Van you help me make this happen?” It’s like a relief to them. Yeah? So, I would say if this guy turns out to be somebody who you get to see periodically, he might be a great candidate for that.

The other option would be to hire a sex worker. Now, I don’t know where you are in terms of the closest city because it’s probably not something you can easily do in rural areas. But next time you’re in a city, that is a great place to try things that you haven’t had an opportunity to try before because you are paying them to show up and serve you. You are paying them to give you the experience that you want. Have you seen the movie, Good luck to you, Leo Grande?

SAVY: No, I haven’t.

LEAH: I believe it’s on Hulu. And it’s Emma Thompson.

SAVY: I’m already sold.

LEAH: I know, right? She’s amazing. She plays a woman whose husband, I think, has just died or maybe they got divorced, but I think he died. Anyway, she’s a woman a little bit older than her middle age. And she’s never had a satisfying sex life. I don’t think she’s ever had an orgasm. And so, she hires a sex worker and has this incredible experience with him experiencing all these things that she wants to.

And as somebody who has hired a couple of sex workers in my own journey, I can tell you that that movie is so true to my experience of sex workers. So, I highly recommend it as an entry point. If that idea gives you any squeamishness, because I know it probably does to a lot of people, that is an excellent way to enter that thought space and think about, is this something I could actually do? And you could hire a male or a female. Okay.

SAVY: Yeah. You’re actually not the first person to suggest that for me. So, again, more concrete evidence that’s helping Savy’s brain go, yes, let’s do that.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Awesome.

SAVY: Yeah. My only hiccup would be I just don’t know how to go about moving about that space because I know that sex work is a lot more complex. And there’s a lot out there. But, of course, the only thing that I have context of it is what the media puts out there, which is women standing on a corner. And it’s not desirable to do that. So, my thing would be I would be very interested in doing something like that and exploring that. I just don’t know how to start going about that.

LEAH: Sure. So, just to be really blunt, this has gotten a lot harder in the last five years because the US government passed this law called SESTA/FOSTA, which has made it really difficult for sex workers to be online. There are not the same kind of avenues that there would have been five years ago. There are still some boards. And I think that they change periodically because who’s getting shut down and who’s starting and all of that.

But there are some boards that are hosted in places outside of the United States. So, you can find people. The last time I looked, I believe TNA was still active. And I believe www.eros.com is still active. I will check those when we get off the phone. If I’m wrong about that, I’ll let you know.

So, finding somebody, depending on where you are in the country and how open things are, might be more challenging. It’s definitely going to be easier in cities than it is in rural America. But if it’s something that you want to follow up on, you and I can have a more specific conversation when we’re not recording.

SAVY: Yeah, definitely.

LEAH: Okay. Great. Your concern about how you smell and taste, is this something that you feel deep in your bones, or is this something that feels a little more surface, like your brain is throwing it up as like, hey, we don’t want to do that. So, here’s an excuse we’re going to give?

SAVY: A mixture of both because of misogyny and all of that loveliness that gets presented to us. Definitely hearing in passing male-presenting people saying that or making jokes about that, not great. But it does also just seem to be also a way to protect myself in the moment. My brain saying, okay, here’s this. See? This is why you don’t really want to do this.

I personally don’t particularly actually feel like I do smell. I like the way that I smell. I find that highly arousing, even for myself. I don’t feel that in general, that I smell, that I have a specific smell that is off-putting. But I also know, again, like you’ve said earlier, I have been told bigger bodies smell different or can smell bad because of that. And so, even though that I enjoy that, I don’t know if somebody else would. And for some reason, my brain is also like, oh, they can’t smell that until they’re very, very close to you anyway.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yes, good point.

SAVY: And it’s like, surprise.

LEAH: Sometimes people’s genitals smell. And this is a fact of life. When my partner comes home from the gym, I’m not going to be like, “Take your pants off. No, thank you. Go take a shower. Then, we’ll be fine.”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: But if somebody is attracted to you and you’re already up in each other’s space, so you’re kissing, you’re touching, they already have a sense of how your body smells. And there’s all this stuff about pheromones and all of that about what we’re putting out and who that attracts. If somebody is feeling like your natural smell isn’t for them, they don’t need to wait until they get to your genitals to figure that out. Actually, oh, man. Have you ever tasted yourself?

SAVY: Yes.

LEAH: Okay. Great.

SAVY: There’s no real taste. It’s just salty.

LEAH: Yeah. So, you like how you smell. And your taste is, to you, pretty neutral. What if when you are in the heat of the moment getting aroused, you put your own finger down there and smell or taste? Now, I’m thinking about how you could do this in a way that doesn’t feel super awkward if you’re with somebody new.

But even if it’s just like, “Hey, I need to run to the bathroom for a second.” Just if there’s some way that you can unobtrusively do that, so you don’t have to discuss it with them, you don’t have to explain. But before they get to your genitals, you’re doing a spot check. And if you like how it smells and tastes, then fuck them. Yeah?

SAVY: Yeah. I’m hoping to fuck them.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Okay. Right. If they don’t like how it smells and tastes, that’s their problem. Yeah?

SAVY: Yes. No, that does make a lot of sense because, again, it’s definitely something where I know I’m not unique in the fact that when I’m getting ready to possibly have sex with somebody or just going out on a first date and that could be on the table, you have a cleaning routine or you have a routine to make yourself be like, I feel like I’m ready to invite somebody to be intimate with myself, with me. I feel like I’m at a clean standard. Whether or not whatever anybody’s personal stance on body hair is, that sounds like a good step to be able to take in the moment so that then it’s a disruptor for the pattern that I have.

LEAH: Exactly. Yeah, so that your brain doesn’t just go off on its own little spiral. Yeah. Okay. So, we’ve covered several different things here today. Is there anything that you feel is left hanging that you want to pick up before we close?

SAVY: No. I think probably my next step is really just trying to see more about sex work or finding some community that I can get into to have a safe space to explore all of this. Just because I know that the patterns that I have available to me right now are not satisfactory. Mentally, emotionally, physically, just not satisfactory. So, no, I am very happy where everything is at this moment.

LEAH: Excellent. I would like to thank you so much for bringing these issues to the table and for having this conversation with me. I think there are going to be a lot of people who can really identify with this. So, thank you.

SAVY: Awesome. Thank you. And thank you for your lovely podcast. It’s a godsend. Yeah. It’s very much a safe space and I appreciate it very much personally.

LEAH: Thank you. So, Savy, one final question before we close up. What would you like to be appreciated for?

SAVY: I would like to be appreciated for the fact that fat isn’t a negative thing. Fat is a state of being. And it can be a negative state of mind for people. But for me, fat is just who I am. It’s just how I am. It doesn’t put any dampener on the person that I am.

LEAH: Savy, I would really like to appreciate you for the fact that fat is not a negative word for you, that you allow yourself to show up fully in your life and not make this the sum total of who you are. I heard you say that for some people. it can be a negative state of mind and that that is a place that you don’t go to for yourself, that you allow yourself to be in your body and be present with it. I really, really appreciate that.

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LEAH: Here are three takeaways from my conversation with Savy. Number one, if you fear the moment that you take your clothing off with someone, remember this. It’s unlikely that they’re going to be surprised by what they see. Regardless of your body shape or size, unless you’re with someone extremely shallow who judges people on whether or not they have six pack abs, which may or may not be obvious under a shirt, your body is not the detractor you think it is.

Sure. We can achieve some minor visual effects with the patterns and proportions of our outfits, but someone isn’t going to look at their date in a size 20 outfit and be surprised that it’s not a size 6 body when clothing comes off. That would be ludicrous. When you take your clothing off, remember, they’ve already seen the whole painting. Now, you’re taking them up close to show them the brushstrokes. And your brushstrokes are unique to you and beautiful simply because they’re yours.

Number two, our brains do crazy shit sometimes. So, if someone acts like they’re suddenly surprised by the size of your body when you take your clothing off, your brain is going to assume it’s your fault for being an awful, disgusting person who tried to pull one over on them, but you didn’t.

Remember point number one. I don’t care how stylish you are. The size and shape of your body is not going to be a huge surprise when you take your clothes off. If they have a sudden change of heart, that’s about them, not about you. Your brain will probably have a hard time holding on to that. So, if this is something you struggle with, download this episode somewhere you can easily find it and listen to that part of the conversation as often as needed until the message sticks for you.

Number three, hiring a sex worker can be an excellent way to explore your desires without any pressure and focus solely on your pleasure. Figuring out how to find a sex worker who feels like a good fit for you can be a challenge. When we finished recording as promised, I looked for sites where you can currently find listings for escorts. I’ve put a handful of links in the show notes.

A while back, I had a conversation with a friend who’s a sex worker. And she told me that www.tnaboard.com was her favorite because it includes a community aspect and opportunity for reviews. The requirements on this board for both clients and providers allows a greater sense of safety and reliability for everyone. You’ll notice on any of these sites that people are called escorts. That’s because you are not paying to have sexual contact with them.

You are paying to spend time with them, to have them escort you wherever you’d like to go. If that happens to be the bedroom, what you do during that time together is a matter between consenting adults. If you choose to book a session with someone, you can expect to do a voice verification phone call where you chat for a few minutes, so they can verify that you’re a real person and they can do a vibe check.

In general, sex workers have a pretty highly developed intuitive sense. So, this is their chance to feel you out and your chance to make sure they feel like a good fit for you, too. There’s so much more to this. I could go on for another half hour, but I want to keep things focused.

So, if you’re someone who’s really interested in hiring a sex worker and wants to talk through the ins and outs of that process, let me know. We can do a laser coaching session on it for the podcast. And I’m sure there are lots of people who would be interested. The link to do a laser coaching session, www.goodgirlstalk.com/podcastcoaching is in the app you’re listening on now. A 30-minute session like this is a great way to get some concrete tools that you can take home and start using right away.

What it doesn’t provide is that ongoing support you get from a coach as you take a step forward and get really excited and then fall down and need to get back up, and all of this stuff that happens in the actual living of your sexual healing experience. So, if you’re looking for a coach, I currently have spots open in my coaching schedule. All of the information is at www.leahcarey.com/coaching. And while you’re there, you can set up a free, no pressure, no obligation phone call to see if we’re a good fit for each other. That link is in the app you’re listening on now. If you have questions or comments about anything you’ve heard on the show, call and leave a message at 720-GOOD-SEX. Full show notes and transcripts for this episode are www.goodgirlstalk.com.

Good Girls Talk About Sex is produced and edited by me, Leah Carey. And transcripts are produced by Jan Acielo.

Until next time, here’s to your better sex life!

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