Sometimes conventional needs have to be met through unconventional means. Heidi has a higher libido than her husband, but a lot of other things in the marriage work. Making a committed relationship work with her partner and best friend requires having another friend to provide more consistent and fulfilling sex. The first time she brought it up, it was a no from her primary partner. Later she was able to circle back based on their trust, goodwill, and clear communication.
Heidi is a 41-year-old cisgender woman. She describes herself as white, straight, and partnered. While her preference for relationship style would be monogamous, she is currently ethically non-monogamous to get her sexual needs met. Heidi describes her body as curvy.
Ethical non-monogamy as a way to navigate mismatched libidos
Asexuality and aromanticism
Tracy’s Dog clitoral sucking vibrator – https://www.tracysdog.com/collections/best-sellers/products/2-in-1-g-spot-vibrator-with-clitoral-sucking
Episode featuring Tori, who is aromantic – https://www.goodgirlstalk.com/posts/podcast/sex-with-women-is-10-10-highly-recommend-tori/
Episode featuring Kristen, who is asexual – https://www.goodgirlstalk.com/posts/podcast/romance-and-sx-arent-the-same-thing-kristen/
LEAH: Welcome to Good Girls Talk About Sex. I am sex and intimacy coach, Leah Carey, and this is a place to share conversations with all sorts of women about their experience of sexuality. These are unfiltered conversations between adult women talking about sex. If anything about the previous sentence offends you, turn back now! And if you’re looking for a trigger warning, you’re not going to get it from me. I believe that you are stronger than the trauma you have experienced. I have faith in your ability to deal with things that upset you. Sound good? Let’s start the show!
LEAH: Hey, friends. Today’s episode has a really special place in my heart because at the same time Heidi and I recorded this conversation, my partner and I were just starting to talk about transition from mostly monogamous to ethically non-monogamous. Listening to Heidi talk about her experience in this area helped me to put some of my own thoughts together. And that’s what I always hope will happen for you as you listen to the show. Something you hear will spark a question or clarify an idea you’re considering or of course get you excited to try something new.
The journey my partner and I are on, of course, is very different from Heidi’s, but there’s still that essential feeling of I’m not alone. I guess what I’m really trying to tell you is that these conversations are often as enlightening for me as I hope they are for you. And if you’re in the midst of conversations with your partner about ethical non-monogamy or if you’re curious to talk about it, but you’re not sure how to bring it up and you’d like support, it’s a topic I love coaching on. So, book a discovery call at www.leahcarey.com.
Okay. Let’s get into it. Heidi is a 41-year-old cisgender woman. She describes herself as white, straight, and partnered. While her preference for relationship style would be monogamous, she is currently ethically non-monogamous. Heidi describes her body as curvy. I’m so pleased to introduce Heidi!
Heidi, I am so excited to talk with you. When you sent in a request to do an interview, I was like, yeah, that’s a conversation I want to have. So, thank you so much for being here.
HEIDI: Thank you. I’m flattered.
LEAH: So, as a listener to this show, you know the first question I always ask is what’s your first memory of sexual pleasure?
HEIDI: I thought about all the common questions you ask, and I still don’t have answers for most of them.
LEAH: That’s fine.
HEIDI: I didn’t have a lot of younger memories of sexual pleasure. I do know at some point, probably 7 or 8, I did realize that if I scrunched up my underwear in between my legs and just walked around like that that it felt really good. And I didn’t do that a lot and I even had that thought. I didn’t think it was bad, but I knew it was probably weird.
HEIDI: And so, I didn’t want to do it because I never wanted to. Probably as a good girl, I never wanted to do anything that was considered not normal. So, that was the one thing I have. And then, honestly, nothing really came up until probably my early 20s that I really had any feelings of sexual pleasure.
LEAH: Okay. So, when you did that as a little girl, you said you didn’t do it that often, but for how long did that go on?
HEIDI: It was probably just a couple of years, and it wasn’t all the time. It was just every once in a while.
LEAH: Yeah. Do you know what would prompt you to do it?
HEIDI: I honestly do think it was more like if I was home alone, it was more of a private thing.
LEAH: Yeah, that’s fascinating. And I assume that you didn’t come to something that you would now think of as an orgasm. It was just that pressure or stimulation you enjoyed.
HEIDI: Definitely not.
LEAH: Yeah. Did you live with a mother and a father? What was your childhood home?
HEIDI: I had a really, really common upbringing. I had a mom and a dad. They were really open. My mom was a registered nurse, so she was very clinical and she probably did the sex talk when I was kindergarten or 1st grade. It was very cis heterosexual stuff. Growing up in the 80s, I don’t even think my mom really considered those things when she was talking about it.
And my parents, I think they were very much in love. They hug. My mom was very affectionate with us, my sister and I. And there were sex books around the house or mostly just the type with the pictures and the baby growing and stuff. And they slept naked. I used to crawl in bed with them occasionally when I was little. I was used to seeing them both naked. I think there was a point where my mom was like, “Okay, dad. You’re probably going to have to stop doing that. And also, don’t go in front of her friends in your whitey titties.”
HEIDI: But they were really open. I think they were so open. And it was so clinical that it never really was that interesting to me. It was just this thing that happened.
LEAH: Yeah. That’s fascinating. Do you think that the clinical way that your mom talked about it, which is completely understandable given the work that she did, do you think that that clinicalness, I don’t know if that’s a word, was helpful to you? Do you think that it helped you to think of things in a, I don’t know, more rational way than maybe a 5-year-old usually would? Or do you think that it made it more difficult for you to engage with the pleasure piece of it?
HEIDI: Both. I think it made it easier for me to get through middle school and high school. It definitely helped. I understood how it worked. If things came up, if anything, I was like, “I don’t know that word because that’s not the word my mom uses.”
HEIDI: But I do think really later on, I started to wonder if I would’ve done things a little differently, but I think for the most part, it was really helpful. And until the last couple years, I always tell people, that’s the way my mom did it. I would absolutely do it the same way if I ever had kids, just really make it a normal thing that we can talk about. I even remember I had a friend in 6th grade who actually wanted to become a gynecologist and did. And in 6th grade at lunch, we would talk about all these things she was reading in these books. She was really ahead of her time.
HEIDI: But she would come and tell us all these things. And so, I was learning a lot, but she was also being very clinical except for she came one day and she told us about blow jobs. And so, I went home. I’m in 6th grade and my sister’s in 8th grade. And my mom and I were sitting at the table, I don’t know, after dinner. And I was like, “Oh my god, you guys. You have to know about this thing. It’s the grossest thing I’ve ever heard and I’m never going to do that, and blah, blah, blah. And this is how you do it and I just can’t even believe it.”
HEIDI: My sister, of course, was like, “Wow, I’ve never heard of that either.” And my mom was like, “You might change your mind.”
LEAH: Okay, good. So, she was open to it.
HEIDI: We just totally talked about it. It never occurred to me until 20 years later, I was like, oh my god, I had that conversation with my mom where I informed her what a blow job was.
LEAH: That’s amazing. So, you said a minute ago until the last few years you were saying that that’s how you would raise your child. What’s that distinction about the last few years?
HEIDI: I think now the distinction is more just the openness that there are other ways to do it and that sex is also fun. She never said it wasn’t fun, but there are a few things in there that growing up in this day and age, I would want to cover a couple other things.
LEAH: All right. So, it would be not only being that open, it would be even more open.
HEIDI: Probably, yeah. I would want to do it as soon as possible, for sure. That, I would never change.
LEAH: Yeah, I love that. I love how that conversation came about in your home. Did your parents ever talk about what and when it would be appropriate for you to become sexually active or to date or any of those things?
HEIDI: We must have, but I feel like in my head, it feels like I made all those decisions on my own. I think they basically said, “You should love the person that you’re with.” And I interpreted that as I should feel comfortable and it needs to be right.
LEAH: I like that, yeah. And so, how did that manifest for you? At what point did you start engaging with people of whatever gender and sexuality?
HEIDI: I did not date at all in high school and I had a few crushes, but it was really socially-based. All of my crushes were like I wanted to fit in. I wanted to be normal and I didn’t want to date somebody who would make me look like I wasn’t at the status that I believed I was. And so, it was really hard for me to find somebody that fit in into that window that I thought was acceptable. So, I never really dated.
And, of course, looking back, I think that there were people who were interested and I was also completely oblivious. I just wasn’t thinking about boys or girls. I wasn’t thinking about anybody, probably just about myself as a teenager would.
HEIDI: And so, let’s see. So, I had my first kiss freshman year of college. And then, after that, pretty much I dated a fair amount in college, never anything serious. I never even really had a relationship the first year or two. But I was messing around just sleeping over and doing other things. And none of it would be considered sex.
But yeah, I did meet somebody. I worked at some resorts out west in the summers and I met somebody while I was working at a resort between my sophomore and junior year. And we were “serious” for the whole three months that I worked there. And that was the first time that I had sex. Actually, I guess the summer before that, I was definitely sleeping around and I probably did. Yes, there was definitely some oral sex at least on my receiving end the summer before.
LEAH: Okay. I have a whole bunch of questions.
LEAH: Because you just went through a whole bunch of things. So, you said that you had your first kiss as a freshman, yeah. What was that like for you? Did you enjoy it? Was it something you wanted?
HEIDI: I did want it. I think I had hyped it up so much that I was nervous and it wasn’t good I don’t think for either one of us. And he was like, “Let’s try that again.” It was really nice of him to be like, “Yhat didn’t really work. Let’s go again.”
HEIDI: So, it was okay, but I didn’t find it particularly awesome.
LEAH: So, you didn’t kiss him again?
HEIDI: We did. We dated a little bit on and off for a while, but eventually, I told him I just wasn’t into it.
LEAH: So, after the boy, freshman year, you said that you started dating and fooling around with people. And you said that you wouldn’t consider any of it sex, which begs the question for me, how do you define sex?
HEIDI: I do consider PIV, is that what we call it?
HEIDI: And oral, yeah.
LEAH: So, anything that involves genitals?
HEIDI: Yeah. But then again, I guess we were using our hands. So, I don’t know how different it is.
LEAH: It’s the reason I ask the question because everybody defines sex a little bit differently and we often don’t even think about it until somebody asks. And they’re like, maybe it is this thing too. And maybe it is this thing too. Yeah, okay. So, you were having a little bit of oral. You were having some manual hand play, but there was no penis in vagina or PIV sex going on.
LEAH: Okay. And were you having pleasure?
HEIDI: I was not having orgasms. It felt nice. I liked how it felt.
LEAH: Orgasms aren’t necessarily the arbiter of pleasure. We can be enjoying things. Would you say that it felt nice, I’m using your word nice, to the degree that you’re like, “Yeah, I want more of that,” or was it nice like, “No, that was fine?”
HEIDI: I think I want more of that, for the most part.
LEAH: And what do you think kept you on this side of the “sex” line?
HEIDI: It was the same deal where I was like I’m definitely not in love. I like these people, but I don’t know that I would trust them 100%. And it was that pressure of I don’t want to have my first time be this thing that I regret later. So, I definitely hyped it up. And I know you’ve talked about this too. I reached a point where I was like, oh my gosh, I just want to get this over with, but also, I was putting so much pressure on it that I didn’t want it to be bad.
LEAH: So, this is the summer between sophomore and junior year, you were at this resort. What made that guy different?
HEIDI: We had actually talked about the fact that we were in a relationship, which I had never really done before. And I was really anxious. I wanted to get it over with and I trusted him and I liked him very much. And I didn’t say, “Let’s do this already.”
HEIDI: But I definitely was like, “I want to do this.” And he knew that I hadn’t ever done it before and he was the typical sweet guy that was like, “Ugh, we don’t have candles.” So, it was really sweet of him and we did and it was good.
LEAH: That was such a lot of qualification.
HEIDI: It wasn’t painful.
LEAH: Okay. That’s different than good.
HEIDI: And it got better. Again, it was me nervous and putting too much pressure on everything and whatever.
LEAH: Sure. So, the first time was not painful. And then, over the course of the summer, it got better. Yeah.
LEAH: Yeah. I think that’s so interesting to describe your first time as good because it wasn’t painful.
LEAH: Yeah. And I bet there are a lot of women who can relate to that. So, when you say it got better through the course of the summer, what does that mean?
HEIDI: I think we just got more comfortable and more open. I still never had an orgasm. And I didn’t even know how to fake one.
HEIDI: So, it was nice and it was enjoyable. And I felt like he was trying to meet my needs and it was give and take and it was just fun. It was something fun that I hadn’t done much of before. So, I enjoyed it.
LEAH: Yeah, okay. Were you having orgasms on your own?
HEIDI: I was not. I had not started masturbating until well after that. I was probably 22 or 23. And I actually made some girlfriends go to a sex store to get a vibrator and they were all like, “Oh my gosh, I’ve never done this before.” And I was like, “I want one. And you guys have to go with me because I need moral support.” And I know they were looking at me the whole time like I was super weird. But I did go and get a vibrator and that was the first time that I masturbated and I sort of had an orgasm. I don’t even know if I had an orgasm. I squirted and I had never done that in my life.
HEIDI: It almost made it worse in the future because it was a mess.
HEIDI: And I regretted having done that and it definitely made orgasms after that harder for many years because I was too tense thinking, got to have a towel and I’ve got to blah, blah, blah.
LEAH: Yeah. So, I’m curious. You said that none of your girlfriends had vibrators. And please forgive me if this is a stereotyping question, but what part of the country were you in?
HEIDI: I live in Idaho and I grew up in Northern Wisconsin. It does make sense although none of us are particularly religious.
LEAH: But still, it’s a fairly conservative area. Did you even have a sex store near you or did you have to travel?
HEIDI: I was in Boise at the time and I didn’t live in Boise. So, there was a store in Boise.
LEAH: Okay. So, yeah, that’s not surprising. So, did any of your girlfriends get vibrators at the same time? Were you at the head of the curve?
HEIDI: They did not. And I didn’t really keep in touch with those girlfriends, so I don’t know now. I still have a few friends that don’t and think it’s strange, but I think most of us as we’ve gotten older have been like, this is handy.
LEAH: What kind of vibrator did you get?
HEIDI: I had no idea what I was looking for. They did help, but it was just like a typical. It was the one that actually looked like a penis, ugh, with the veins and stuff. Why would anybody need veins? Nobody needs those. But yeah, it was just a single penis-shaped vibrator.
LEAH: And so, it was primarily for internal stimulation?
HEIDI: It was. Although I figured out pretty quickly that that was not necessarily what I needed.
LEAH: So, you used it in on your clit?
LEAH: Yeah. So, tell me about squirting. Did it come over you all of a sudden and it just happened? Did you have any warning? What was that experience for you?
HEIDI: I don’t totally remember, but I think it just happened. There was no warning. It felt nice, but yeah, it just happened so fast. I didn’t know what happened.
LEAH: Yeah. Did you think that that was part of an orgasm? Did you think that it was separate from an orgasm?
HEIDI: Previously, I didn’t know that was a thing. And I definitely thought something is wrong with me. I knew it was related like something happened and obviously, it wouldn’t have happened if I hadn’t been doing that. But I didn’t really think too much about it that that was a normal thing.
LEAH: I’m curious because it sounds like that was your first orgasm and that was your first squirting experience. And so, I wonder what the young, uninformed brain does with that, if you didn’t know that that was part of the whole thing.
HEIDI: Yeah. It decides that you need to tense up because you don’t want that to ever happen again.
LEAH: Yeah, okay. It’s interesting. I’ve worked with a few clients who are squirters and with varying degrees of enjoyment of it, but at least one has talked about, “I wish I could stop this. I wish that I could just clamp down on this and make it not happen because it’s messy and there’s just so much to deal with.”
HEIDI: It has never happened again, but I do have some orgasms. But it has never happened again.
LEAH: Do you want it to?
LEAH: So interesting.
HEIDI: I’ve met a few men where I’ve told them about the experience and they were really turned on and wished that I would, but I don’t feel like I have a ton of control over that anymore.
LEAH: Yeah. I bet there were more than one gentleman who was actively trying to make it happen.
HEIDI: Indeed, yeah.
LEAH: I want to invite you to imagine for a moment what your ideal sex life looks like and feels like. Who are you with? What type of sex do you have together? How do you feel while touching them? And how does your body feel when they touch you? Or maybe you’d like to be having less sex than you’re currently having.
If you don’t know or if that vision of your ideal doesn’t look at all like what’s currently going on in your bedroom, I can help. With personalized sex and intimacy coaching, we’ll explore where you are, how you got here, where you want to be, and the steps to help you get there. There are no right or wrong answers, just the answers that work for you.
I understand that exploring your sexuality and all that goes with it, your body image, your belief in your lovability and more can be terrifying. Believe me. I sat in the middle of that fire for decades. I know how painful it is. But I also stepped out the other side stronger, more confident, and more certain of my lovability and desirability and I want the same for you.
I work with couples and one-on-one, whether you’ve never explored your sexual desires before or you want to explore things you’ve never done before like maybe BDSM or non-monogamy or if you and your partner need some help figuring out how to communicate together, so you can have better sex. I’m queer, kinky and poly friendly and I want you to have a deeply fulfilling intimate life. Together, we can help you get there.
For more information and to schedule your free discovery call, visit www.leahcarey.com/coaching. A new client recently said that before her discovery call, she was extremely nervous, but that I made the experience feel easy and comfortable. So, book your free discovery call today at www.leahcarey.com/coaching.
LEAH: So, after that experience of having an orgasm with yourself, did that change how you interacted with partners?
HEIDI: I don’t think so. I think as we age, I definitely started to learn some things, depends on what age we’re taking about. I think I started to say, “You’re a little off.” I started to get a little bit more instructive, but even with the vibrator, I didn’t use it very often, not compared to how I do now. But it didn’t change a ton. It just made me more self-aware.
LEAH: That is an excellent thing to take away from using a vibrator is understanding how your body works and what it enjoys. So, I’ve heard you say a couple times that you don’t have orgasms very frequently. How do you feel about sex that ends without you having had an orgasm?
HEIDI: At first, of course, I was like, I don’t even know. I think the first time I had masturbated, I didn’t even think it was an orgasm necessarily. So, I was like, I don’t know what an orgasm feels like. This is nice. It never really occurred to me that I wanted something different. So, it was fun. As I got older and I started to have more orgasms by myself and with some of the men that I was with, I did have that resentment where I was like, “I’m very wet. I’ve never had a problem with moisture.”
HEIDI: “And we’re going to bed. That doesn’t seem fair.” So, I definitely had some resentment and there were many years that I didn’t say anything. And as I’ve gotten older, again it’s like, “Okay, you’re done. We’re going to spend more time on this.” So, it just depends on confidence. I just never had the words or the confidence when I was in my 20s and even early 30s.
LEAH: Sure. That makes total sense. As women, we’re not supposed to have the confidence to advocate for ourselves. At what point did you have your first “serious” relationship, however you define that?
HEIDI: I dated a lot in my 20s and 30s, but I also took a lot of really long breaks. And if I want to do math, I was never in a relationship for more than 3 months. So, I never know if any of those were serious because nobody met my parents. So, the first person who met my parents, I guess the one, the first person I had sex with, he did meet my parents once. But truly, the person I’m with right now is the first time that I have ever been in a real relationship. It depends on how you define real.
LEAH: All that matters is how you define real. All right. So, when and how did you meet this person?
HEIDI: So, I’ve moved around a few times. I grew up in Wisconsin. I moved to Idaho. I was there for three years, and then I moved back to Wisconsin in my 20s. All this happened in my 20s. So, I actually met him when I lived in Idaho the first time we were working at the same company. And he is 14 years older than I am. And at the time, I was 22. So, I kept thinking, why is this weird guy always coming over to our department? He has no reason to be there. And again, completely oblivious. I had no idea why he was there. I just thought he was weird and also old.
HEIDI: And so, fast forward 8 years later, I have a new friend in Idaho and I’m complaining about how hard it is to date here. And she was like, “I can introduce you to my brother.” I was like, “Okay, who’s your brother?” And she told me who he was and I was like, “I know that person.” So, we technically went on a blind date, but I also already knew who he was.
LEAH: Yeah. Did you like him right away when you re-met him?
HEIDI: I still thought he was weird and he is not particularly affectionate. I’m very expressive and he is not. And on our 4th date, I was like, “Are we friends? Because I feel like you just want to be friends. And if that’s what you want, that’s okay. But you need to know that’s not what I’m looking for.” And so, on the 4th date was when we finally kissed and it was a little bit more passionate.
And after that, I needed a little bit more of a connection. I needed to know that he was interested. So, I think after that, I got pretty connected. Although our relationship is complicated and we definitely broke up many times and saw other people many times and took breaks because our styles are so different. And so, it’s always complicated.
LEAH: What do you mean when you say your styles are so different?
HEIDI: Our communication styles, our levels of affection, our sexual styles. I don’t know that he would define himself as asexual, but I really think he could give or take. It’s really not a big thing for him. And it’s a separate topic, but I have polycystic ovarian syndrome and I was diagnosed at 13.
And so, at 13, I was put on birth control. I always have thought that has affected my interest in sex. It just really muted it and I was on birth control until I turned about 31. And I decided I didn’t want that anymore. I didn’t know what it was doing to my body. And I really went clean. I was nervous what would happen and I changed my diet. I did all these things to try to make it an easier transition because I was worried something was going to go really wrong. And it went great. The only side effect was I, all of a sudden, really wanted to sex.
LEAH: Which is maybe or maybe not a side effect.
HEIDI: Yeah. I don’t know if it was because I’m over 30 and sex drive changes as you get older or if it was the birth control or what, but he just happened to find me at a time where I was like, “This is something I really want to do.” He was interested, but he certainly didn’t want to do it as often as I did.
LEAH: I have a bunch of questions, of course. So, when the two of you knew each other earlier in the office setting, was he coming over and spending time in your department because he was interested in you?
HEIDI: He was, yeah.
LEAH: So, it was specifically you that was bringing him to that area. And then, when you re-met him, he was interested in dating you.
LEAH: Okay. So, I want to be careful about not making any assumptions, but I’m just going to ask you the questions using the words that may sound a little leading. Is it possible that he is asexual but not aromantic?
HEIDI: Yes, definitely.
LEAH: Okay, all right. And so, what does that mean to you? What does your relationship look like?
HEIDI: We still have sex. It’s usually pretty scheduled and it’s usually based on his emotions. He is also bipolar depressive. So, we work with that and it’s easier if it’s on a weekend or if it’s on a holiday, if we’re travelling and the stress levels are low. It’s easier in the summer. There are just a lot of things that we work around. So, it’s very predictable and very, in my opinion, vanilla.
LEAH: Okay, all right. Do you have pleasure?
HEIDI: Yes. Not a ton. I have had a handful of orgasms with him and we’ve been together for 8 years.
LEAH: Does he have pleasure?
HEIDI: Yes. He always does.
LEAH: Okay. And when the two of you have sex, is it something that he wants?
HEIDI: It is. I stopped initiating, which is a separate question you’ll ask later. But I have just given up on getting turned down so many times that I stopped initiating. So, when we do it, he usually does. On occasion, I’ll give him a warning if I know it’s a good week and I’m like, “We’re going to have sex later.”
HEIDI: And he’s usually like, “Okay.” He understands. Sometimes, I feel like he thinks it’s a duty like he has to.
LEAH: Yeah. So, as far as the romance of the relationship, so I just want to do a quick little PSA here for people who are not so familiar with this. Your desire for sexual connection and your desire for romantic connection are not always in lockstep. There are some people who desire sex much more than romance. There are some people who desire romance much more than sex. There are people who don’t desire either.
So, what we’re talking about here is someone who is potentially somewhere on the asexual spectrum and that is very much a spectrum from people who don’t want it, are 100% uninterested, to people who want it sometimes, but it’s not the biggest thing on their priority list.
Same thing with being aromantic. There are some people who would be happy to never have that kind of romantic connection because it requires a kind of connection and energy and attention that just is not a part of their makeup. And there’s nothing wrong with that. There are other people who are on that spectrum of aromantic may enjoy it sometimes, but maybe they’re not super into committed relationships, things like that.
So, you can be asexual and aromantic or you can be one or the other. They’re not always in lockstep. So, now back to you, Heidi, and your relationship, it sounds like he’s somewhere on this asexual spectrum. And where is he on the romance spectrum, do you think?
HEIDI: He does want to do nice things for me and he does appreciate me. And we’ve never defined this either, but he is definitely my best friend. We do so much together and we very much enjoy each other’s company and the trips that we take and the activities. And I think he perceives that that’s the romance is that we do those wonderful things and experiences together.
LEAH: What keeps you together? What keeps you in this relationship? I understand that it sounds like that’s keeping him in the relationship. What keeps you?
HEIDI: It’s the same thing. I can’t imagine losing my best friend. And I love being able to live together and have a normal everyday life where we get up in the morning and we eat dinner together and we talk about interesting things. And he’s the most interesting person ever to talk to. I think he’s brilliant and I find it very sexy that he’s brilliant. There are a lot of other things that I get from the relationship that aren’t particularly physical.
LEAH: So, it sounds like you have a comfortable companion relationship that every once in a while includes sex. Is that accurate?
HEIDI: I think so.
LEAH: How much do the two of you touch? Is there cuddling? Is there that kind of thing?
HEIDI: There’s a lot of that, but it’s all because of me. And it’s taken many years. I think he pretended that he didn’t even like it and I think he doesn’t like a lot of touch. I also have moments where I think he might be a little bit on the Asperger’s spectrum. He doesn’t really like physical touch, which is different about sex because I don’t do a lot of giving. He would prefer to do most of the giving, but we cuddle a lot. And it’s because it’s the way I was raised. You cuddle and I’m very tactile and I want to touch. I’m always touching all over him.
HEIDI: And it makes me a little sad that he doesn’t want to do the same thing to me, but I get more out of my ability to be able to touch. So, it’s enough.
LEAH: Yeah. And what it sounds like to me is that you have a high touch need and that you’re finding ways to get that met. And that’s great. As long as he is not actively disliking it and he’s willing to provide that to you, then terrific. You’re getting your needs met in that way.
HEIDI: Yes, I think so.
LEAH: So, how are you getting your sexual needs met?
HEIDI: That’s going to be the next part of that conversation. When we’re actually together, we actually do have separate beds and that’s just my thing. We just don’t sleep well. So, it’s usually in his room that we do it and I will often leave and go back to my room and I’ll get on my vibrator and I’ll take care of it. Sometimes, he’ll try after sex to use his hands. It usually doesn’t work. So, at least that’s how I take care of it now. I don’t know. I masturbate a lot like almost every single night.
HEIDI: It’s my sleep aid. Just do that, and then I can go to sleep. So, there’s that part, but also in one of our many breaks that we took, I was seeing other people and I met another man. And the sex was so good.
HEIDI: It was just so good and I had never experienced that before. And when my partner and I agreed to get back together, okay, we’re doing this for real. I’m not doing this again where we’re going to break up in 6 months. We’re going to move in and we’re going to do all the things. And at that time, I said, “I’d like to talk about this other person.”
LEAH: Wow, that’s so brave.
HEIDI: “Is there any way that I could maybe work this in?” And he said no. He said he didn’t think it would work, and then we wouldn’t really be in a real relationship. And maybe we’d do it, and then we’d probably not last. And so, I ended it with the other person. It was a while and we kept in touch. He has a lot of old girlfriends that he’s friends with. So, it was really easy for me to be like, “This is my friend and we’re going to be friends and you have to trust me because that’s really important to me.”
And so, we kept in touch, and then it was as our relationship was developing with my partner, I was really physically dissatisfied and we would have a lot of these moments where we’d be lying in bed and I finally just said something like, “You’ve been travelling a lot. Is there any way that I can work something else out? I know my friend is still around and I know he’s still interested and I know he’s willing. And can we talk about this again?” And this time, he was lying there thinking, “I’m not giving her what she wants.
And he said yes.
And this is really the part of my ongoing question is like how to communicate these things and how to be fair to everybody and thoughtful because I said, “Let’s talk about how you want this to go.” And he agreed that he would prefer when he was out of the country at the time. And he didn’t want to know anything about it, which I struggle with.
Because again, I’m a huge communicator and I didn’t want to feel like I was lying. I wanted to be like, “I’m going to see this person. You can use your own imagination, but I’m going to see them.” This was more like me trying to find ways to say that I was going to do something else. I was going to hang out with a friend or I was filling in holes that I didn’t want to fill in.
But when he agreed to that, he was doing a lot of international travel for months at a time. And so, he would go away, and then I would spend whole weekends but not necessarily during the week with my friend. And it was really wonderful. So, that was a really great way to supplement A) the fact that was gone and B) the fact that there are other things that I wanted to be able to do.
And that has definitely evolved because my partner’s travelling less often at least to other countries, so we had to have another conversation where I was like, “Can we modify this a little bit? Can it just be when you’re travelling or you’re away?” And I had to check in again, “Do you want to know about it?” Unfortunately, he still doesn’t want to know about it.
So, there are a lot of things that he’s not totally onboard with. I know that he’s doing this for me. And there are still some passive aggressive comments that he’ll make on occasion and I think it’s just the fact that given our age, his age, and given the way that we grew up, I think he just feels like it probably isn’t right. He doesn’t want anybody to know about it necessarily or I don’t know. I think he feels like he’s less of a man or I’m not sure. So, we’re continuing to struggle with that conversation.
LEAH: You have called him several times your friend. Is that what you think of this relationship as like friends with benefits?
HEIDI: I guess so. Just because I don’t have a term for it. I looked up what poly was. I was like I don’t think we’re polyamorous. And then, I looked it up and I was like, I guess maybe we are.
HEIDI: But we have never used those labels. And both of the men in my life are a little older than I am and I don’t think they’ve ever been comfortable with those labels. So, I don’t have another term for it. I don’t want to call him my second partner. I feel like I need a way to designate this, this is my person. This is my real person, my partner, and then there’s this other really good friend.
LEAH: Yeah. There would be polyamorous terms to describe that, but I agree with you that those terms don’t really make sense because it sounds like you are at heart a monogamous person who’s needing to get your needs filled by two different people.
HEIDI: I also just don’t want to offend them. I know that it’s sensitive for both of them and my friend is very willing, but I also don’t want him to feel secondary. So, there probably is that part of that monogamous that I don’t want him to feel secondary although he is welcome to see other people.
LEAH: So, how does your relationship with your sexual partner, your friend, how does that function? Are you in a romantic relationship with him or is that bond primarily sexual?
HEIDI: It is definitely romantic. He is my food, wine, and sex friend. And in fact, we are going to Europe. That just happened.
LEAH: How is that settling with your partner partner?
HEIDI: It was his idea. My friend has been talking about going to Italy for a long time. And I’ve been talking about it to my partner that this is this thing he wants to do. And then, my friend finalized plans and it’s actually more of a memorial trip for a trip that he took with his dad before he died.
And so, now, this is happening. I’m going. Here’s the schedule. It’s a thing. And I told my partner that this was the thing that he was going to do and it was really an amazing experience to be able to go with somebody who has it all planned out. I don’t like planning things. I just want to show up and have somebody tell me what I’m doing on vacation.
So, I think in the end, it came up a few times and he kept saying, “That would be a really amazing experience. I really wouldn’t be able to tell you no because I’m never going to want to do something like that and the food and the wine.” My friend’s got a culinary background, all this stuff that it was like you just can’t say no. So, in the end, I kept hinting at it and he was like, “I feel like you have to do this.”
And then, when I asked my friend, “You also have been hinting at me that you’re annoyed that you’re going by yourself and who wouldn’t want to go when it’s all set?” And I was like, “So, would you be interested in me going?” And he was thrilled. So, yeah, we’re definitely reaching a new level of these relationships where this has never happened before, but I also just don’t want to pass out this wonderful opportunity to eat and drink my way through Italy.
LEAH: Yeah, that sounds pretty amazing.
LEAH: So, if the romantic and sexual connection is pretty stable and strong, it sounds like with your friend, what keeps you with your partner rather than switching those places?
HEIDI: I think my partner is set on a regular basis, which is what he’s struggling with, but my friend is actually 20 years older. And I do struggle with that age difference. I’m very practical. I‘m very financially practical and just life practical. I don’t like what that looks like in 20 years. He also is not particularly good with his money and I am very good with money and so is my partner. And I have benefitted from that. And I just can’t see a long-term future for us. And there are things about his personal life that I wouldn’t enjoy.
I don’t think I would enjoy living with him. I don’t think we’d be compatible. It’s super fun on the weekend, but it’s from a really practical perspective. It’s just not something that is going to work for me and because I’m so “responsible” it would drive me crazy. It wouldn’t be enough. The sex would never be enough. The food, wine, and sex would never be enough.
LEAH: So, that’s fascinating. You have what many would probably consider an unconventional setup and yet, it’s set up in a way that it really seems like it works for your life and for your personality and for your needs. It may not be perfect, life rarely is, but no matter how other people would see it, it sounds like this really works for you.
HEIDI: For me, personally I think so.
HEIDI: I have these moments of like, am I being selfish? That’s why I’m trying so hard to make sure that everybody, that the three of us, are on the same page and the three of us all have a say and the three of us are included. I just really don’t want anybody to feel like I’m taking advantage of them or I don’t know. Maybe overthinking it.
LEAH: No. I think those are reasonable questions. Do the two guys know each other?
HEIDI: They do. And they’ve met a few times before this arrangement happened. They haven’t crossed paths since then, but they know each other.
LEAH: And do they have any particular feelings about each other or are their feelings mostly about you being involved with each of them?
HEIDI: My friend really wants to make sure that my partner feels okay. He definitely is like, “Even the Europe trip, is this going to be okay?” He doesn’t usually come over to our place. We only hang out at his place. Those are his rules. So, he wants to be really respectful. And beyond that, I think that he’s disappointed that I’m not getting my needs met from this other person. He thinks in some ways that’s wrong, but he’s also benefitting. So, I think he’s fine. He’s surprisingly chill. My partner, I think also respects him, but he’s still having those moments of like, “Why aren’t you just with him then?” I think his thoughts are a little bit more complicated.
LEAH: So, your friend, you mentioned he’s welcome to date other people. Does he consider you a primary partner?
HEIDI: I think he does. We live in a really small town. And at our age, it’s even more complicated. He’s been on dates and he’s tried to ask people out and we talk about his dating. And he’s been frustrated and maybe if he wasn’t frustrated, he wouldn’t be sharing that with me. I don’t know. But in general, as far as I’m aware and I think I definitely told him that, “If you start sleeping with someone else or at the very least if you start to get serious with someone else, I would like to know about it. You can, but I want to know.” So, as far as I’m aware, he’s not.
LEAH: Yeah. How do you feel about the idea that he might?
HEIDI: I am fully aware that this is temporary. That makes me sad, but we’re not going to live forever.
HEIDI: So, even if it’s just age and where we live, people move, it ends, I get that. And I really want him to be happy. I know he wants to be in a real relationship. So, I think it would be hard, but it would also be I want him to be happy, which I think is similar to what my partner is going through. This might suck, but I want you to be happy. So, I’m willing to accept that when it happens.
LEAH: How does all of this play out socially for you? Do you go out in public with your friend? Do you tell your non-sexual friends what’s going on? How open are you about all this?
HEIDI: It’s definitely been a progression. All of my good girlfriends know and I want to be able to tell them because again, it’s just that making stuff up like, “I can’t hang out Saturday night.” I don’t want to lie. It’s just too complicated. So, all my girlfriends know. My sister knows.
We do go out in public. We are in very different circles. So, it generally isn’t an issue and I have come around to the fact that it’s nobody else’s business. People can decide what they want. If they see us out, whatever. They’re not going to ask and they can make it up on their own. So, I’m getting better at that, but we do go out.
My friend, he doesn’t answer anything. He will never clarify. So, I think most people think that we’re together when they see us out. Sometimes, that fucks me. Sometimes, I’m like, I like the intrigue. I don’t know.
LEAH: So, you mentioned your friends and your sister, what about your parents?
HEIDI: Definitely not. And I don’t think I ever will. I think that’s just way too beyond what they would understand. As far as they’re concerned, I am in a committed relationship. And they would prefer that we were married, but I don’t even know that they would prefer that for any religious reasons. They just think that it’s a way meant for a relationship and that’s what people do.
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LEAH: So, you talked earlier about if you had kids how you would take to them about sex. Do you want to have kids?
HEIDI: No. And my partner, he had a vasectomy a long time ago. So, I knew that going in.
LEAH: So, that’s a non-issue for you.
LEAH: Yeah. I’m sure that there are other interesting pieces of this puzzle that I’m not thinking of the right questions to ask to get at them. So, what else is there that you want to tell me?
HEIDI: My curiosity around the whole sex just became an amazing thing at 30 and also my interest in trying to understand good ways to communicate this with my partners. I’ve come to terms with communicating it in public with other people, but I communicate a lot and I keep thinking this drives them crazy because I keep checking in like, “How’s this going? Do we need to talk about this? You made a passive aggressive comment. Let’s address it.” And I know it drives them crazy, but those things are things that I’m struggling with. I’m just really wondering how to proceed.
HEIDI: And Europe too. I really want to make sure that when I get back, it doesn’t change anything. And my partner has made some comments about he’s not a fighter and there have been other women he was interested in and they were interested in more than one person. And so, he was like, “More power to you. Go ahead.”
And so, he’s made it very clear that he doesn’t think he would fight for me and we’ve had that conversation where I said, “But you love me and I love you and we’re committed. And I guess I’m telling you I don’t need you to fight for me. I need to know that you’re here if I’m here.” And it’s a weird thing. Balancing a relationship like this is so much work.
HEIDI: So, just always having to check in those things and make sure that we’re on the same page and talking about for me in our relationship is trust is the most important thing for me. I want you to trust me and that everything I’m telling you is for real and we agreed on this and I’m going to do what we agreed. I’m not going to sleep with somebody on a weekend when you’re home. Those were the rules and I’m going to follow them. Maybe we can modify later, but I feel like we’re actually very vanilla. We’re middle aged, but this is a really different situation that I’m not familiar with, which is why I’ve enjoyed listening to this show, but just trying to figure all that out as we go.
LEAH: You’re not it sounds like particularly interested in polyamory, which leads me to the question are you in love with your friend?
HEIDI: Yes. I love them both very much. But it’s hard to explain the difference. And I will occasionally let it slip to my friend that I love him. He does not reciprocate. And he did before when we were just dating. So, I decided that’s what he’s comfortable with and I guess it doesn’t really matter to me if he does love me or not. I occasionally need to be able to say it, but I do hold back. But I love them both in very different ways.
LEAH: So, you’ve said a couple times that you’re very vanilla with your partner. And the first time you said it, it sounded like maybe you wanted more.
HEIDI: I definitely want more.
HEIDI: But my friend and I explored more and I get a lot more of that. We’re still a little bit more, it’s not a lot more.
LEAH: So, what’s the little bit more?
HEIDI: We’ve played around with tying each other up and we definitely do a lot more oral and we do it for a lot longer. We’ll mess around all night. And he can definitely last longer. So, we can make things work better for me. He’s very interested in my pleasure. And he likes to watch me masturbate, which my partner does not. And he likes to play with my toys, which my partner does not. And he likes to tell me stories while I’m masturbating, which helps me immensely and he’s been able to see that it works.
So, it’s just a lot more he’s just really, really generous and really open and I feel really comfortable and he would be willing to do anything I wanted to try. And sometimes, it’s just me not having the courage to be like, “Maybe we should do this thing I’ve never done before and I might hate it, but let’s try it.” Because we have done a few things that have been like, “Ugh, never mind. I don’t want to do that.” It just wasn’t working for me.
LEAH: Yeah. What questions do you have about sex in general or your sex life in particular?
HEIDI: It really is about how I ask for what I want physically, which I guess I’m doing and just how to communicate in a way that doesn’t mess this whole thing up, which truthfully, I think it’s part of it too. I don’t want to lose this.
LEAH: Yeah, of course. So, here’s what I think about communication. We tend to think of effective communication as getting out the idea or the words or the thoughts that we need to say like, “I’m not an effective communicator because I can’t express what I need.” So, people do a lot of work to figure out, okay, so how do I say what I need to say? And that is crucial work and I am in no way saying you shouldn’t do it.
It does however miss the other half of the communication equation, which is that the person you’re communicating to needs to be able to hear it. They need to be able to receive it because if you say something and they can’t hear it, then there’s not effective communication going on. There’s effective speaking going on. But it’s the same as if you go say it to a tree because if your partner can’t take it in, then what good has it done?
So, something that I work with clients on a lot is what is your partner’s communication style and how can they receive it is what you have to say? So, there are two pieces to this. What do you need to say, and then how can you say it in a way that your partner can receive it? That’s the full cycle of effective communication.
And I think people will hear that and sometimes then go, “You mean I’m supposed to tie myself in knots in order to make sure that my partner can hear it?” No, not at all. But also, if you’re going to take the time and energy to figure out how to stay something, don’t you want the other person to receive it? And you’re in a situation where I imagine your two partners have different ways of hearing and receiving things.
HEIDI: For sure.
LEAH: So, you’re going to have to develop two separate ways of maybe communicating exactly the same message to two different people. Does that make sense?
HEIDI: It does. And I don’t think I’m screwing it up.
LEAH: It doesn’t sound like it.
HEIDI: I don’t because I do a lot of that. It’s like I know when nis the right time to talk. I know it has to be comfortable. My partner can’t be stressed and it can’t be a bad time of year or time of season or whatever. And I know the differnt words that are well-received and not well-received and that I can’t cover too much at once.
And I feel like my friend is a little bit easier. I think he and I have a little bit more common communication style, but it’s still the same thing. If nothing else, I feel like with him, it’s more, “We should try this thing,” and sometimes I’m really good at that. And other times, I’m just chicken. And I need to find a way to say it in my head that doesn’t make me feel like there’s something wrong with me.
LEAH: Sure, yeah. And I think that is one of the challenges for those of us who grew up as little girls to figure out how to say those things without feeling like we are working the taboo or someone’s going to come and snatch us up for being a bad girl.
HEIDI: For sure.
LEAH: And now, it’s time for the lowdown, the things we’re dying to know, but would usually be too polite to ask any good girl.
LEAH: Do you have sex during your period?
HEIDI: No. Not really. Neither one of them are particularly interested, but occasionally we will do it at the end of my period. My period’s actually only 2 or 3 days long. So, it’s pretty easy to work around and also, I’m usually like as long as you don’t get your mouth involved, I think we’ll be fine.
LEAH: What’s the approximate number of sex partners you’ve had?
HEIDI: Somewhere between 10 and 20. I definitely stopped keeping track after 10.
LEAH: Yeah. How old were you when you began masturbating?
LEAH: Have you ever had sex with someone of a different racial identity than your own?
HEIDI: I have not.
LEAH: Is that something you’re interested in or circumstances or what?
HEIDI: It’s very much circumstances. Again, Northern Wisconsin and Idaho, there isn’t a ton of diversity here. I’m not opposed, but it’s just not something I’ve had a lot of exposure to.
LEAH: Sure. What’s your favorite sex toy?
HEIDI: I love my vibrator and it’s basically a rabbit, but I’ve explored even more beyond that. I don’t really like the rabbit ears.
HEIDI: Occasionally, I like the suction and occasionally, there’s a different one that has a little brush on it. I love the brush. So, for sure, it’s hands down my 7 vibrators.
LEAH: Have you ever tried the Tracy’s Dog? It’s the worst name for a vibrator ever, but it’s an internal piece that vibrates and then an external sucker.
HEIDI: I think I have one of those.
LEAH: It’s become my favorite toy.
HEIDI: Yeah. The suction doesn’t always work, which is why I have 7. Sometimes, I’m like, ugh, this isn’t working. And then, I have to switch. Other times, the battery dies because they really don’t last very long. Maybe that’s just me.
HEIDI: But yeah, I think I have one of those.
LEAH: What’s your favorite sex position?
HEIDI: Actually, I have a position book that I have showed to both of them, received in different ways.
HEIDI: And I think it’s called the wildflower where my knees are up over his shoulder, so basically, missionary but with my knees up over his shoulders. And then, occasionally, doggy style, but depends.
LEAH: Do you prefer to initiate or for your partner to initiate in the bedroom?
HEIDI: I feel like I don’t even know the answer to that anymore. I actually think I like initiating. I just don’t do it very often because I hate the rejection, which is probably a good girl thing. I think I like it, but it’s also flattering to have someone else initiate.
LEAH: Yeah. I had this conversation with my partner recently. We both go through ebbs and flows of sex drive and depression and anxiety and all of the things. We both deal with all of that stuff and I have done most of the initiating in the last several months. And a lot of times, he’s not been interested and I said to him, maybe 2 weeks ago, “I need you to initiate sometimes because right now, I’m doing all of the initiating and I’m getting turned down most of the time and it makes me feel really rejected.”
And he hadn’t given it a moment of thought. He had just been responding any time I asked with where he was at the moment, which I want him to do, but he hadn’t realized the cumulative effect that was heaving on me. And so, as soon as I said that, the next day, he initiated. I was like, “Oh my god, thank you so much.”
So, yeah, I guess I’m telling you that, I’m saying that because I think it’s important to recognize that feeling rejected does not somehow make us less evolved. I think there’s this idea that we’re supposed to just be totally okay with whatever because consent is most important and it is. And there’s also this other thing that can happen.
HEIDI: I don’t know if I’m necessarily going to change my approach, but I appreciate that and also appreciate my coming to terms with the fact that I do like initiating. And so, it’s nice to know what my preferences are.
LEAH: Yeah. Do you prefer clit stimulation or penetration?
HEIDI: Primarily clit. But because I love my rabbit, whatever it’s called, these days, I like both. I like that feeling of fullness.
LEAH: Yeah. Do you enjoy G-spot stimulation?
HEIDI: I think so. I honestly don’t know. I never know. There’s another spot on the other side. That spot, I like even more.
LEAH: Okay. So, I am not totally up on anatomy. It’s not my strong suit, but I think what you’re referring to is the P-spot. That’s, yeah, on the other side.
HEIDI: Yeah. I enjoy them both. I don’t know that I’ve ever had an orgasm from either on its own.
LEAH: Do you enjoy having your breasts played with?
HEIDI: Very much.
LEAH: Is there a part of your breast that is most sensitive?
HEIDI: I also remember you talking about this. For sure, my nipples. And I love that. And it varies based on the time of month and there will be times where I’m like, “Use your teeth.” And there are other times when I’m like, “You need to be gentle. I want you to do it, but you need to be gentle.” But also, I discovered being tied up that there’s also a spot on the side along my rib cage that’s on the side of my breasts on both sides that is really sensitive and I love that too.
LEAH: Nice. Do you think it’s generally easy or challenging for you to orgasm?
HEIDI: Pretty challenging, yes. Challenging, I’m much better at it by myself.
LEAH: Have you ever faked an orgasm?
HEIDI: No. I still never. All those years, I didn’t know how. And then since then, I’ve just been really honest. They’re both well-aware that it’s something that’s hard for me to do and I just feel like that’s a trust and respect thing too. Why would I do that? And maybe there’s a part of me that’s to make them feel better, but I’m not going to go there. And then, they’re even more excited when I actually have an orgasm.
LEAH: I love that, yes. Do you prefer the orgasm from masturbating or from sex with another person?
HEIDI: It’s so different. When I have an orgasm with another person, I think I do prefer that. It’s more I don’t want to say mind blowing, but it’s usually bigger. When I do it by myself, it’s quick, takes 5 minutes. I can get in, get out, get to bed.
HEIDI: Whereas I think there’s more of that relationship part in that intimacy that I do enjoy if we can make it happen.
LEAH: Yeah. What’s your favorite thing to do to a partner during sex?
HEIDI: Obviously, I don’t do a ton for my partner. Although we do have recently discovered that 69 is really good for us, which I was very much against in the past because I wanted to be able to focus.
HEIDI: I think I enjoy doing that, but doing it to my other partner, even he doesn’t want a ton. I do enjoy blow jobs with him in particular because he seems to enjoy it more and obviously, I want to know that they’re liking it. So, I guess, yeah, I enjoy that as well.
LEAH: What kind of touch do you enjoy receiving the most?
HEIDI: I enjoy all the touch.
HEIDI: I want to be able to touch everywhere, which maybe that is the answer to the previous question. I just want to be able to touch everything and also I want them to touch me everywhere. I could just sit there for an hour and just have somebody put their hands and their lips all over me and it would be glorious.
LEAH: What are your hard red lines?
HEIDI: I hate slapping. I don’t like it. I don’t want my butt slapped. So, that’s one. But beyond that, I think I will discover what the hard red lines are when we try it. And then, I’ll be like, “I don’t.” Yeah, I suppose I don’t want anybody to pee on me.
HEIDI: I don’t want to pee on anybody else. That’s probably just a hygiene thing. So, that’s about it.
LEAH: Yeah. You mentioned that there are some things that you’ve tried with your friend that you’re like, “No, that’s not really for me.” So, what are some of the things that you’ve done that you don’t really need to do again?
HEIDI: Various positions. I think we tried a reverse cowgirl and there’s a lot of positions where we’re both like, that just didn’t work. And he is pretty large. And so, we tried anal once and we were just like, never mind. Never mind. We can do other things in that area that do not involve his penis.
LEAH: Yeah. How do you feel about porn?
HEIDI: Yes, please.
LEAH: What particular kinds of porn do you enjoy watching?
HEIDI: I like everything. I definitely watch things that I’ve never tried in my own life like all things. I feel like the stories, it gets old. I can only watch it once or twice, and then I need to watch something different. So, it really depends on my mood. Sometimes, I love female worship. Sometimes, I like gangbanging. I can go either way.
LEAH: Yeah. Do you primarily watch heterosexual porn?
HEIDI: No. I’m more interested in two men than I am in two women, but I’ve seen it all. Not really.
HEIDI: In my world, I have.
LEAH: Yeah. What’s your ideal frequency of sex?
HEIDI: Three times a week now. I think five years ago, it would have been six or seven times a week.
HEIDI: I was not ever getting that, but now it’s probably three.
LEAH: Do you have hair down there or are you bare?
HEIDI: I have a very well laser sculpted runway.
HEIDI: So, just a strip.
LEAH: So, that’s the way it will be forever because it’s been lasered?
LEAH: Have you ever had a threesome or more?
HEIDI: I have not and I would be open not it.
LEAH: What would the gender makeup be of a threesome?
HEIDI: I think I could go either way. There’s a part of me that’s like, two men, that sounds like a lot of work. And with another woman, I think either could be fun. I just wouldn’t know what to expect.
LEAH: Yeah. Have you ever had any experiences with women?
LEAH: Do you enjoy giving blow jobs?
HEIDI: Most of the time as long as they’re enjoying it.
LEAH: And do you swallow or not?
HEIDI: Yeah. It’s not a big deal. Mostly, I’m the practical part like where is this going to go otherwise?
LEAH: Do you enjoy receiving oral sex?
HEIDI: Very much.
LEAH: Do you ever worry about your smell or taste?
HEIDI: Less so as I get older. I think when I was younger, I was worried about my size and all the things that I wasn’t going to be. It was all those things in my head that probably kept me from having an orgasm. As I get older, I don’t want to have sex. We went camping for three days, but actually, I do. I would even do that. So, I don’t worry about it as much. I do try to be conscious of it and clean things up if I know things are going to happen. But no, it’s not a big deal.
LEAH: What do you consider the “kinkiest” thing you enjoy with the understanding that everyone’s scale of kink is completely different?
HEIDI: I know and we’re so not kinky. Probably just I like being tied up. It’s fun.
LEAH: Yeah. Do you enjoy dirty talk during sexual encounters?
HEIDI: I love it. I hate giving it. And it’s the same thing where we’re all worried that we sound stupid and I don’t know what to say and I feel uncomfortable. I love hearing it. I don’t love saying it.
LEAH: Yeah. Have you ever felt a sexual urge that confused you?
HEIDI: Not recently. I know I had some moments in college where I was like that woman, I’m so attracted to her and I was like, what does that even mean? What does that mean? And I think I came to terms with it really quickly. I was like, I’d be open to it, but also, I just think she’s interesting. I think she’s attractive and I think she’s smart and I think she’s got a lot going for her and that’s why. So, it confused me, but I think I just came to terms to it pretty quickly.
LEAH: Okay. What’s your favorite part of your body?
HEIDI: I like a lot of things about my body.
HEIDI: That’s taken a lot of time too. But no, I like my eyes and I like my legs. And I’ve worked very hard for my legs and my eyes have always been an easy feature.
LEAH: Nice. What’s your least favorite part of your body?
HEIDI: As I get older, my arms.
HEIDI: I work out a lot, which I never used to do. And I’m very strong and I’m 41 and I do not like all the things that are still hanging around my arms that are never going to go away.
LEAH: What is something about your current sex life that isn’t as satisfying as you’d like it to be?
HEIDI: With the current combination, I feel like I’m pretty satisfied. The thing that I would like is to continue to feel more comfortable with my words and the things that I do and say and I want to get out of my head. I think I will continue to have more orgasms if I just get out of my head.
LEAH: Yeah. What belief did you have about sex as a child or teenager that you wish you could go back and correct her on now?
HEIDI: I’ve been thinking about this question ever since we said we were going to have this interview. I have so little. There are things that I could’ve happened different or someone could’ve told me, but I don’t think it would’ve changed the outcome at all. I suppose I would want to know that it really can be fun. But beyond that, I don’t have a ton of regrets.
LEAH: I like it when people don’t have regrets. Honestly, it’s so unusual. And I think it’s really wonderful. Heidi, thank you so much. This has been an amazing conversation. I’m so glad that you wanted to have it.
HEIDI: Thank you. I really appreciate it. I mentioned I’ve never done something like this before and I thought it would feel really good to be able to talk with someone openly about all these things without having to weigh the things that I should and shouldn’t say.
HEIDI: So, I appreciate it.
LEAH: That’s it for today. Before we go, I want to remind you that the things you may have heard about your sexuality aren’t true. You are worthy. You are desirable. You are not broken. As a sex and intimacy coach, I will guide you in embracing the sexuality that is innately yours no matter what it looks like.
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