When we started to explore kink – Betsy

LEAH: Hi, I’m Leah Carey and this is Good Girls Talk About Sex. This is a place to share conversations with all sorts of women about their experience of sexuality. Before we get started, I want to tell you this. These are unfiltered conversations between adult women talking about sex. If anything about the previous sentence offends you, turn back now! And if you’re looking for a trigger warning, you’re not going to get it from me. I believe that you are stronger than the trauma you have experienced. I have faith in your ability to deal with things that upset you. Sound good? Let’s start the show!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: In today’s episode, we’ll meet Betsy, a 38 year old cisgender woman who describes herself as white, straight, monogamous and in a relationship. Last year, Betsy came to me to do sexual communication coaching as she considered branching into some new sexual explorations. She tells some of that story in this episode. If you’re interested about learning coaching with me, visit me at leahcarey.com and click on coaching!

I’m so pleased to introduce Betsy! So Betsy, thank you so much for joining me today.

BETSY: I’m so happy to be here.

LEAH: Let’s go back to the very beginning. Do you remember how you discovered the idea of sex?

BETSY: No, I’ve listened to some of your other podcasts and I was really inhibited as a kid. I found masturbation pretty early but aside from that I didn’t think about actually having sex with a guy for a very long time. And yeah, so I was young. I mean I was young when I got into masturbation. I can’t even think when I started thinking about sex itself.

LEAH: Yeah, so when you discovered masturbation, I take it from what you’ve said that you didn’t necessarily equate that to sex.

BESTY: No, it just felt good.

LEAH: Yeah. Do you remember how old you were when you found masturbation?

BETSY: Probably somewhere around puberty. I think I got my period when I was 13 but I also remember finding my dad’s Playboy magazine younger than that. I think I was younger and looking at them, just to see what women were supposed to look like and stuff, which is interesting.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: That is interesting. The idea of what women are supposed to look like and yet those are sort of the impossible women.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: Yeah. No kidding.

LEAH: Yeah, what did you take away from those magazines? Did you have some idea of how you were supposed to grow up to look?

BETSY: Not like I did.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: Butt skinny, curvy, and I was always a little chubby. Just not like that good. [LAUGHTER]

LEAH: How did you feel about your body as you were growing up?

BETSY: Pretty poor. It’s actually been very recently just in the last few years that I have felt okay about my body at all. It’s always been a hate relationship. I was physically active as a kid but I also had a lot of pain from the time I was twelve and I had Lyme disease and so my relationship with my body was pretty poor. After that, I was just hurt pretty much all of the time and then it got really bad as I was an adult and then I fixed it and now I feel great but yeah, no.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: I think I’ve always hated my body.

LEAH: So you mentioned both that you feel better about your body but it sounds like you also feel better in your body physically. Did those two things happen at the same time or did you go through them separately?

BETSY: It was a progression. Let’s see about six years ago, I lost 80 pounds. Yeah, I had gotten really unhealthy. Meds, birth control and antidepressants and very unhealthy relationship with my ex-husband and I was miserable. I was sick. I had to stop working I was so sick.

And I went off all of my meds and really studied up on how I was going to get my health back under control for myself and I lost 80 pounds ridiculously quickly and it stayed off and since then I’ve lost a little bit more. The pain almost completely went away. I started to feel like even four years ago, I was saying that I was in less pain than I had been in since I was a kid. Like a kid before I was a teenager. And so feeling better physically within my body was huge.

After I got a divorce, took a couple years and then I started to realize I didn’t look stupid to men and then it’s actually been my current partner that has made me really start to look at myself differently. I’ve also been doing an exercise program just in the last 5 months that is all sexy dance routines. It’s based on ball room but it’s very sexy and it makes me feel sensual and sexy and I’ve got some muscle definition and I’m just starting to feel really excellent about myself. So it started by losing a bunch of weight and feeling less pain physically and then it’s just gone from there.

LEAH: I want to know all about the sexy dance routines.

BETSY: Now I’ve been doing it 6 days a week and I do it in my underwear, just my underwear and a sports bra and sneakers. It’s really sexy and it’s a lot of hip, it’s a huge amount of core and I still have quite a lot of padding on top of my muscles but I have muscle definition underneath the padding like I can actually see it. It’s crazy.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: It makes me feel so good in my skin.

LEAH: I wonder if part of feeling good in your skin is the fact that you’re accessing that sexy, sensual part of yourself as opposed to and this is not to shade to people who go to the gym, but they’re focusing mostly on their muscles as opposed to this sensual energy inside their bodies.

BETSY: Absolutely. That is probably 100% accurate. It helps that I’m having incredible sex.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: But between the two things, this just adds so that I feel sexy. I have a huge mirror in front of me when I’m doing these videos so I know that I’m working the right stuff but it also means that I’m looking at myself and I’m more I guess acclimatized to my body. And I’ve been watching it be more coordinated and stronger and sensual and sexy. It’s very cool.

LEAH: You mentioned that you came to the idea of sex with a partner later. When you did start thinking about that, what were your experiences? How did you feel about it?

BETSY: I was a horse girl and then I was an animal science girl and then all it meant was I was around girls all the time. And I wasn’t particularly attracted to them. So I had very little opportunity to be around guys and I’ve always been super shy and so even the guys I was interested in, I played it so cool that they would never have known.

And so, by the time I had the opportunity, like literally this was a guy who was separated from his wife and he was looking for something to rebound into I think, and it took me completely off guard because it was the first time anyone had really shown interest in me. Actually there’s a different experience before that, but that’s when sexual intercourse actually happened.

It was at that point I was like 27, 28 and I was just so fucking relieved to just get it over it and done with. He had no idea I was a virgin and I mean I just didn’t care. It was just like, “Let’s get on with this already.”

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: It wasn’t a big deal. It was just, “Oh my God, can we just do this?” [LAUGHTER]

LEAH: I remember I was 25 and it was with my first serious boyfriend at the time but I also remember that I wasn’t particularly attracted to him. I didn’t particularly want this thing. I just wanted to not become the oldest lady virgin.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: Yes. Well, I had to be.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So you had mentioned there was somebody before him. What was that experience?

BETSY: It think I was still too shy at that but out of college, I went to the bar with a coworker or two coworkers and one of their friends was there. I was physically attracted but then I never had an opportunity and damn it, I just want to do something.

So we went out to the car and started making out and one of the podcasts I was listening to with you, the exact same thing happened. He just pushed me down on his dick and it’s the first time I’ve ever seen a penis at all.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: And so it was just uncool and what’s really fascinating is I love giving head. It’s one of the things that I love to do and so it doesn’t make any sense that I would. But that was my first sexual experience.

LEAH: Did you feel violated by that experience?

BETSY: It’s funny. It hasn’t been to me that I ever revisited it at all. I just blocked it out. Not in a bad way,

just in a “It’s something that I don’t want to think about again.” [LAUGHTER]

BETSY: So yes and especially in retrospect. I mean we’ve all been through that Me Too movement there. It’s what happened, right?

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: That’s just how it goes. That’s how it works and so it’s pretty empowering for that to be different now.

LEAH: So then with the man who you had sex with the first time or you had intercourse with the first time, what was that experience like? You said it wasn’t really anything of you expect just let’s get this over with. But did you have any pleasure during that?

BETSY: Oh yeah. Yeah and I had played with toys with myself before, so it wasn’t like there was anything radically different except that it was somebody else’s something.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: In retrospect, he wasn’t particularly big and so it was fine. It was kind of whatever. With that partner in fact, that was the first time I had sex. That was the first time I had anal sex because he wanted to try and I was like, “What the hell. Whatever.” And what’s funny is that I don’t even remember that as being a big deal. It was just something that he wanted to do and I was like, “Okay.”

But yeah, I enjoyed him. I certainly got pleasure out of it even though I’ve been inhibited because I’ve been aware of getting sexual pleasure by myself. It’s been something that other guys could certainly give it to me as well.

LEAH: So it’s like your body knew that experience and so you could access that with other people as well?

BETSY: Yes. Yes, perhaps because I’ve always had a hate relationship with my body, I wasn’t worried about what they thought of my body. I hated it enough. I didn’t really care what they thought as long as they were happy to be with me, give me pleasure.

LEAH: Oh, that’s fascinating.

BETSY: Yeah, and that’s the first time I really thought about that but it makes sense to me in that way.

It’s like I already hate it enough so it doesn’t really matter what you say about it. Just give me pleasure.

There was a little while after that one guy that I played at a bar as in three months out of my life, I went to the bar and had one drink for the entire night but I took somebody home on a really regular basis so I got to play and I got to see a whole lot of different penises and a whole lot of different guys and I had a lot of fun. Somehow I managed to be safe and never get pregnant.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: We used condoms every time.

LEAH: It sounds like you went from super isolated, inhibited, introverted to going to a bar and taking home lots of different men. What was that shift?

BETSY: All of a sudden men were interested in me and I’d never seen that before. And I needed to get to a physical location where I guess I could see that there were guys interested in me.

Even now, I can’t go to a grocery store or the car dealership and see guys looking at me as if I’m a sexual being. And that’s not completely true. Just the last few months, I’ve been able to do that but I had to be at a physical location where you’re supposed to get picked up.

LEAH: That’s so interesting. I completely relate to what you’re saying because I have never felt like I was one of those girls who anybody notices. Until I started to feel better about myself and then I started to notice other people noticing me but I’m not actually sure that it’s any different. I wonder if other people were noticing me, I just wasn’t in the headspace to be able to recognize it.

BETSY: Right. I guess I have to assume that that’s how it worked. But now that I’m thinking about it, Leah, it was a dance floor at the bar. I had so much fun dancing. And now I’m dancing in front of the mirror and I feel really good.

LEAH: I love it.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: Yes. It’s kind of funny.

LEAH: So when you were dancing on the dance floor, did men approach you? BETSY: Yeah. That’s what they’re supposed to do, right?

LEAH: Right.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So you didn’t have to be the one doing the approaching? You found a place where you could fit into the sort of milieu of what was “supposed” to be happening and find kind of your happy place in that situation and that it was okay to receive that attention.

BETSY: Right.

LEAH: So you’ve mentioned that you are married previously. How did you meet your ex-husband?

BETSY: Match.com. I went on a date with him and hated him. There was nothing and then a few days later he texted me and asked if I was still interested and I legitimately thought that he was somebody else that I was still interested in.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: In retrospect, it might have been nice for me to remember and say, “Oh no. Sorry, dude.” But whatever, I was married for 8 years.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: And what was sex like with him?

BETSY: Extremely vanilla. Yeah, beat it right out of me. I had a very high libido when I first got together with him and his was not. And it was also, “Now? It’s the middle of the day. Here? This is the couch!” It was extremely vanilla like being exploratory, exploring anything in sex, oh God, I think it was even just cowgirl like it wasn’t even doggy style. It was just not missionary was a big taboo.

He was great at going down on me and I enjoyed going down on him for the most part but it got to the point where he rejected me so many times when I wanted sex that I stopped wanting it. I stopped masturbating for the most part and it’s not like we went for years without anything. It’d be like once a month but that wasn’t enough for me but then I just didn’t even want to do it.

And then the last time we had sex I had already decided that I was leaving. I was waiting for the proper time to let him know. And he came and I burst into tears.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: It was bad because towards the end of our relationship, he got his libido back and it really became one of those, “Oh, fuck. I’ll just lay here for a minute. All right. Can I go to sleep now?” It was very much that way for the entire last couple of years of our relationship. I just felt put upon but it was easier to just let it happen.

I never had fantasies or at least I tamed them down so I don’t remember ever having them. I never thought about what else got me going except every once in a while there was some random, really weird stuff that turned me on physically if I was looking at pictures or reading about something.

And so I was starting to get an inkling of what was interesting to me but I certainly wasn’t going to be able to do it with my ex-husband, Mr. Evening after dinner in bed.

LEAH: Yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Did you know that if you want more Good Girls Talk About Sex, you can find it at Patreon!

This week’s rewards are at the 5 dollar a month level, Betsy talks more about her BDSM relationship with her partner, including specific activities they enjoy and how important trust is in their relationship. At the 7 dollar a month, you’ll get almost 16 minutes of Q and A! And, as always at the 10 dollar a month level, you’ll get all that plus a monthly ask me anything!

Plus for season 2, 10% of all Patreon donations I receive are going to ARC-Southeast, an organization that provides financial and logistical support for people seeking reproductive health services in Southeastern United States where safe services are being legislated out of existence.

To learn more and become a community supporter, visit patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex. And word of mouth is the best advertising so please, if you love this show, share this episode with a friend!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: So what were some of those things that you were getting inklings about?

BETSY: Honestly, I never went on the Internet and looked at BDSM or anything like that and so I wasn’t sure what it was. But God, looking at books on torture and they were starting to turn me on, I was like, “Oh.”

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: Or Shades of Grey but that was more recent obviously. I read fantasy and one of the series could be in the Romance section but you could tell that the author fought pretty hard for it to be in the fantasy section. But there was really rough sex, really kinky stuff in that and not only that, but the main character really wanted the rough sex and she really loved one of the many guys and he wasn’t into that stuff. They didn’t call it vanilla in those books, but she had really calm sex with him every once in a while but she wanted the rougher stuff. But then again, I never really allowed myself to think about it because it wasn’t something that was in my realm of possibility,

LEAH: So what made you start thinking about it as being within your realm of possibility?

BETSY: You.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: Flat out, as you were chronicling your experimenting and getting in touch with your sexuality. It was like, “Oh my God! Real people do this. Holy shit, real people do this?”

Yeah, so it started me thinking about it and I started I guess to just Google BDSM and look at the pictures and I realized that nothing hard, I’m not interested in getting tied up and suspended or anything but yeah. And I was starting to realize pain does it to me a little bit. So yeah, honestly it was you talking about your experiences that allowed me to start looking at myself more.

LEAH: It’s part of why I’m doing this podcast because I think that we need to hear other people’s experiences in order to understand what might be possible for us.

BETSY: Right. That’s the entire reason that I actually wanted to do this podcast for you, just the impact that you had on me, if anything that I say could make someone else a, “Oh” moment, that “Heh heh heh.”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Well that too. [LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Well, I’m really grateful that you decided to do it to be brave. So let’s talk about meeting yore current partner and how that happened and how you got to that place.

BETSY: We were Facebook friends. I don’t even remember why. I saw that he was using a cane and I wasn’t sure why. And I never really asked my parents about it because it wasn’t that important. It was just a kid from my past and so he sent me a letter that he had written to the parents of the kids that he coaches wrestling for explaining that he has MS and it’s primary progressive and so it wasn’t really huge deal and that what he said to us wrestling parents was, “This is my passion in life. I’m going to do this until I can’t anymore.”

So that just got us talking. I automatically fully trusted this man from the moment we started talking again and I can’t explain it. I think it was because of remembering him as such a sweet great guy as a kid and then he’s been completely open and honest with me for all the relationship and that’s been incredible and so necessary because my ex-husband was not honest.

LEAH: So how did you feel about getting involved with someone who you knew from the jump has a chronic and progressive illness?

BETSY: When we got involved, I thought I was looking for a play partner. And not only that, but we had started in our texting to go back and forth about I was starting to hint that I wasn’t interested in vanilla because that’s what I was getting about myself and I wanted to explore that and so I wasn’t looking for a relationship. I was not looking for a relationship.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Say it again for the people in the back. [LAUGHTER]

BETSY: This was experimentation. This was play. I wanted a play partner. You introduced me to that term and I wanted to explore this part of myself and so yes, I am a sexual being and I wanted sex but I wanted to try this thing that was starting to become something that I was really interested in.

And lo and behold, this man that I’ve known since I was 8, was interested too in kink but also hadn’t explored it. And so, we stared to explore kink completely on our own and then it became more. It was play to begin with and then it became more kind of really quickly.

LEAH: So let’s talk about exploring kink together. Where did you start? How did you progress? I want to know everything.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: Well, let me see if you can help me remember. I had discussed with you that I was interested in kink.

LEAH: Oh yeah, we talked about that a lot.

BETSY: Yeah, and then all of a sudden I had an opportunity and so after he and I gotten together, found that there was some chemistry there, at least sexual chemistry. You and I talked again and you were giving me some hints and some pointers, link to a questionnaire thing?

LEAH: Yes, no, maybe, you made a list, yup.

BETSY: And so he and I were both intellectual and very dirty minded. [LAUGHTER]

BETSY: And so we went through the yes no maybe thing, the entire list and I think we only ever did it once but it gave us a really good basis for how to do it and so we’ve had conversations ever since then on an incredibly regular basis. Actually, after every single play session, and that’s the best thing Leah, absolutely the best thing.

I was actually just talking to him about this a month ago, I still considered them play sessions. He is still a play partner even though we have become incredibly close like lifetime partner. It’s still play which gives us the chance to experiment and make mistakes and the mistakes are just funny as shit.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: We’ve laughed so much and then we do a post-mortem and after basically all of our play sessions especially if we’ve done something new. We either directly afterwards or like the next day or something like that. We’ll rehash which adds to the fun because turning each other on just intellectually talking about what we did but it also means that, “Oh yeah, do more of that.”

And it frees up the space while we’re playing so that if I don’t communicate particularly well in a play session, I get completely into my body and I lose my words.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: It’s just how I work and he’s great at talking throughout play and turns my mind on just as much as he turns my body on and I would love to give that to him as well. But I’ve gotten much more vocal but it’s in grunts.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: This is actually incredibly common. I don’t know how much reading you’ve done about this but there is a phenomenon called subspace which is when someone is in the submissive role land sort of

their whatever, their animal nature takes over, they go into a different headspace where for some people that means that you lose connection with your verbal faculties. That’s a really common thing.

BETSY: I love knowing that because it’s one of the most freeing wonderful things to me. It is when I’m in that space of just being taken care of, just being pleasured. It’s such an incredibly freeing experience to know that I am good. I’m being taken care of plus totally fun. It feels so good.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So what kinds of activities in particular do the two of you enjoy together? BETSY: We’ve been exploring toys. You mean sexually right?

LEAH: Yes.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: I just want to make sure.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: He would never have asked me this but I knew that anal play was cool to me. I had never really explored it a lot but I knew it added a lot to my experience and so we added that in, but I had had anal sex before with the partner before him who was not interested in taking care of his partner. And so there was no, oh God, I bled after every time like it was just not cool. But it still wasn’t bad. It was just, “Ugh”, bleeding for a couple days.

but he just takes care of me and so he’s very careful and there’s much lube as I could possibly want. There’s his, “Stop. Hang on.” And then more lube. So anal is just communication throughout the entire thing and he is always incredibly careful and especially when we first started, just anything. I mentioned that I’m into pain and he is not.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: Not for himself and he had to really work himself up to giving me any and once he realized how turned I get by it, he’s totally turned on. But it mortified him so okay, so a little bit of pain, anal play, we have toys. We have clamps and anal plugs and we got a new thing that’s a remote vibrator for inside the vagina and that’s very cool. We’ve tried role playing and the ones that we’ve done, we’ve enjoyed but it’s pretty light. We haven’t really done anything particular strong with that. What else is there?

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Well, you’ve mentioned being tied up.

BETSY: Oh right. Yes. Yes. So first it was just one set of cuffs and then I figured out how to cuff myself to

my window sill.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: And then we got a 4 point recently and that’s fun. LEAH: So meaning both your ankles and both your wrists?

BETSY: Yes. And there’s another thing that we haven’t used as much. He lives kind of far away from me so we see each other just about every weekend. And then it’s really play session from when I get there to when I leave.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: But we can’t always and so yeah, as I’ve gotten more in shape physically and then as he’s been doing this more, I have more sensation. We have kind of marathon sex sessions and it’s just getting better like I swear to God, every single time it gets better and I never realized that it could.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: That is amazing.

BETSY: Yeah, there are times when we’ll have a session that it just feels like one orgasm from a couple minutes in until we finish. It’s just wave, wave, wave and it’s the most ridiculous thing in the world. It’s pretty cool.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Before we started recording, we had talked about a couple of things that you made sure to mention. One of them was about how being a submissive makes you feel in your life.

BETSY: You were mentioning that headspace, the subspace, is that what you called it? LEAH: Yeah.

BETSY: I think that’s probably the easiest place to start with that. I am completely submissive. I am giving myself over to him because I trust him completely and he continues to stop and make sure that things are okay with me. And the more he knows me and my boundaries, the less he stops but he’s also incredibly caring and continues to be really attentive.

But it’s almost completely about me and I give myself over to the sensation and to him but what that does it allows me to be completely myself in the bedroom and I can be completely myself in the rest of the world. I’m a strong woman. I’m a strong independent woman. I’m able to be that because I have this outlet for full submission. It’s the coolest thing that I never even thought might happen. I could be two people because I encompass that complexity.

LEAH: Oh, I love that.

BETSY: Yeah, I am strong and independent and even that way in the relationship like when we’re not in the bedroom, I’m on top of my shit and I take care of him and it’s hugely important and yet I can do that even better now because I have this other outlet where I am completely taken care of.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Before we finish up, let’s do the quick five. Five quick questions we’d usually be too polite to ask any good girl.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Do you have hair down there or are you bare?

BETSY: I have hair everywhere.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: It’s actually one of the things that I told him before we saw each other. I don’t shave and I’m never going to shave again.

LEAH: And he was cool with that?

BETSY: He was going to have to be. And he’s gotten to the point where he thinks it’s super sexy.

LEAH: Oh, nice. How much of your sex time is spent in this sort of kinkier BDSM world and how much of your sex time is spent in more vanilla play?

BETSY: That’s actually a great question and we play along the line between. I don’t think we do very much, what does he call it, he doesn’t call it vanilla. It’s something like sweet sex. We do that probably one out of every five and we do hardcore tied up, not hardcore, we don’t do hardcore anything, but tied up another one out of the five and then the other three are borderline where he’ll add some pain in.

So yeah, our generic sex is not vanilla. But it’s also not what anybody in the kink world would probably consider kinky. I don’t know. It’s not hardcore anything.

LEAH: Sure. How do you feel about the smell or taste of your own juices if he kisses you after going down you?

BETSY: I’ve gotten to the point where I really like it. I love to suck it off his dick or smell it on his beard. LEAH: It sounds like that’s new.

BETSY: To like it?

LEAH: Uh-huh.

BETSY: I think to allow myself to notice if I liked it or not.

LEAH: Do you prefer when your partner makes noise or is quiet?

BETSY: I love it when he talks and makes noise.

LEAH: is your play session over when you cum or are you a multi orgasm girl?

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: I think before we stopped counting, there was one session that was 24 times.

LEAH: Oh, good Lord. Wow.

[LAUGHTER]

BETSY: That’s kind of what I thought. I have to say I call him a sex god on a fairly regular basis.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: I love that. Thank you for sharing that. And in fact, thank you for sharing everything. This has been just an amazing conversation. I’m so grateful to you for doing this.

BETSY: You’re very welcome. [MUSIC]

LEAH: Thanks for joining me today on Good Girls Talk About Sex. If you have questions or comments about anything you’ve heard or if you’d like to be a guest on the show, please email at leah@goodgirlstalkaboutsex.com.

I was only about to step outside my good girl box when someone I respected told me it was possible o do it. If you’d like to step outside your good girl box, I’m here to tell you it’s possible and I can provide you with tools to name your desires and communicate them effectively to your partner or potential partners. If you’re interested in working with me, visit leahcarey.com/coaching. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube at IamLeahCarey.

You can find these links and any resources we’ve mentioned during the interview in the Show Notes. I’m Leah Carey and I look forward to talking with you again next week. Here’s to your better sex life!

[MUSIC]