You do you, but you should also be doing me! – Liz

LEAH: Welcome to Good Girls Talk About Sex. I am sex and intimacy coach, Leah Carey, and this is a place to share conversations with all sorts of women about their experience of sexuality. These are unfiltered conversations between adult women talking about sex. If anything about the previous sentence offends you, turn back now! And if you’re looking for a trigger warning, you’re not going to get it from me. I believe that you are stronger than the trauma you have experienced. I have faith in your ability to deal with things that upset you. Sound good? Let’s start the show!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Hey, friends. So, you know the usual conversation, right? It’s the one we’re familiar with that the husband is frustrated and resentful because his wife won’t give him as much sex as he wants. But that’s only one of many, many stories. It just happens to be the one that our cultural consciousness has hooked onto.

Today, we’ll hear another. What happens when a wife needs more sex than her husband is willing or able to give her? In today’s episode, we’ll meet Liz. She’s a 44-year-old cisgender female. She describes herself as white, pansexual with a strong heterosexual lean, probably monogamous and mid-divorce. She has one child and is post-hysterectomy. She said hormonally, she’s probably perimenopausal and her body is very curvy. I’m so pleased to introduce Liz!

Liz, thank you so much for joining me today. As everyone knows, my favorite people to talk to are listeners who write in and say they want to be a guest, so I’m thrilled that you’ve done that. Thank you for being here.

LIZ: Thank you so much for inviting me.

LEAH: Absolutely. So, my first question is always what is your first memory of sexual pleasure?

LIZ: I’ve been thinking a lot about this and I think it’s a weird habit that I had as a kid that as an adult I now recognize was giving me sexual pleasure, but I didn’t know it at the time. But when I would have to go to the bathroom and my bladder was very, very full, I would press on my bladder from the outside and I enjoyed that. And everybody was like, “What are you doing? Stop it. You’re going to mess up your parts.” And I was like, “But it feels good.” They’re like, “No. Just go to the bathroom.”

LEAH: Oh, that’s fascinating. So, other people noticed you doing this?

LIZ: Oh, yeah. It wasn’t discreet. Everybody knew that that’s what I did when I had to go to the bathroom. Yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: At the time, obviously you didn’t have the words sexual, but did they recognize that this was a pleasure thing for you versus a just purely physiological thing?

LIZ: I don’t think they saw it as anything sexual. Like I said, I just recently realized that it might be.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: Because I now know when I have sex, it’s much more pleasurable if I have a full bladder. So, I, now as an adult, put all of the pieces together.

LEAH: Fascinating. When you were pressing, where on your anatomy were you pressing?

LIZ: It was probably just above my pelvic bone, I would imagine. The place that was firm because my bladder was full.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yeah. So, it wasn’t you actually cupping your genitals?

LIZ: No, not at all. That, they might have noticed was a sexual thing, I would hope.

LEAH: Yeah, right. That is fascinating. And it’s so interesting too because one of the very first videos I put up on YouTube, my YouTube channel is not as active as I want it to be yet.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: But one of the very first videos I put up was about having sex with a full bladder because I have a previous partner who used to try to shame me into not peeing, so that I would have a full bladder because he had read somewhere that that would make sex more pleasurable for me without any recognition that for me, that is not pleasurable at all.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: Right because then there’s so many other things you have to worry about, yeah. No, I seem to enjoy it. And apparently, that’s been a lifelong thing.

LEAH: So, every body is different quite literally and I love hearing different people with different experiences. So, when you do that now as an adult, what is the sensation for you? Is it adding to the sexual sensation?

LIZ: It does and I don’t even know the physiology behind why it feels better. It’s putting just enough counterpressure against whatever’s happening inside that it’s nice.

LEAH: Yeah, awesome. I love it. All right. So, was there a point at which that internal pressure and pleasure became external for you? Was there a point at which you started masturbating?

LIZ: Oh, yeah. Of course. I was probably 13. Yeah, I think I had just turned 13 the first time I remember masturbating for what I would consider it now anyway. I think it was just a curiosity like I had this weird sensation which I now know was probably clitoral engorgement while watching TV or watching a movie and there was a sex scene. I would be like, “Oh, that feels nice. What is that?” So, it was just an exploration of what that feeling was I think that led me to that place.

LEAH: Yeah. It sounds like you’ve done a lot of reading and a lot of research like you have a lot of words to put to the experiences you’ve had.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: Yeah. I’m a Googler by nature, so I’m like, “I wonder if there’s a word for that or let me do some research on this.” It’s just in my nature to learn as much as I can about everything.

LEAH: Yeah, great. So, when you started masturbating, was that as pleasurable as you were hoping it would be?

LIZ: I think it was. It caught me a little off guard the first time I had an orgasm because I didn’t know what that was or what to expect from that. I knew that it existed in theory.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: But I personally have no idea what to anticipate for myself what it would feel like. And yeah, it was a good time.

LEAH: Yeah. So, you were touching yourself because you had that sensation, the clitoral engorgement sensation, and so you put your hand, but you didn’t know that you were moving toward an outcome?

LIZ: Not the first couple of times, no. But then, eventually, I was like, “The longer I do this, the better it gets, let me just keep going and see what happens.” And then, it happened.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: At what point did you learn that that was a thing called masturbation?

LIZ: Probably right around that same time. It wasn’t a forbidden thing or anything like that. I don’t know that I knew there was a word for it necessarily for a couple more years maybe.

LEAH: Did you have sex education in school?

LIZ: Just the very basic how not to get pregnant, how not to get herpes and HIV, but nothing beyond that really.

LEAH: Yeah. So, pregnancy prevention, disease prevention, but nothing about how to have a healthy relationship?

LIZ: No. We had the girl to woman video that we watched separate from the boys in 5^th grade and we knew the physical what was there, but not what to do with it.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yeah. What were you seeing modelled in your home around relationships, love, sexuality?

LIZ: it’s a very weird question for me because as a child, everything was picture perfect. My parents had their bedroom locked on Saturday morning and we didn’t ask questions and that was that. Also, as a nosy child, I do remember snooping through drawers and things like that and I stumbled across some videos and some toys that prompted mental questions, but nothing I ever asked because we didn’t talk about it. I never got the sex talk from my mom. She literally handed me a book and was like, “Here, read this.”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Oh, okay. And how old were you when that happened?

LIZ: Probably 10, 11.

LEAH: Was it a useful book?

LIZ: Not that I recall.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: It was more of the what to expect when you’re going to have a period and how to handle that, that type of book. It wasn’t really a sex ed book. We had The Kama Sutra on a bookshelf or The Joy of Sex on a bookshelf, but I didn’t really look at them because I was a kid and it didn’t occur me.

LEAH: Sure.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yeah. So, that was your childhood. Did something change at some point?

LIZ: As an adult, I now know that my parents were much more sexual than I knew as a kid. Thank god I didn’t know that as a kid.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: As we said before we started recording, there are things kids don’t need to know and that would fall into that category. There was maybe some swinging happening, some of my parents’ friends were definitely into partner swapping. My mom, to this day, insists that she was not part of that.

LEAH: Oh, so you’ve asked her?

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: Yeah. It was a weird conversation and that’s just been in the past couple of years that I’ve found that out. So, yeah, more information than I needed to know necessarily.

LEAH: Yeah. So, you said on Saturday mornings, they would go in and shut the door. Did you as a kid understand what was happening behind that door or did you think that they were reading and watching TV?

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: There may have been a TV on but it was not Saturday morning cartoons. No, I don’t think I realized what was happening. It was just on Saturday morning, that was their routine. I don’t think I knew what was happening in there. I just knew that that was their time and not to interrupt.

LEAH: And did you have siblings?

LIZ: I have a younger sister. She’s three years younger and mentally challenged, so I don’t think she put anything together and it was certainly something I never talked about with her.

LEAH: Sure. I was going to ask if you had older siblings if they were explaining anything to you.

LIZ: Oh, no. I was the older one and I was not explaining anything to her, I promise.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: You also mentioned that you found videos and toys in drawers. Were they porn videos, I assume?

LIZ: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I was young the first time like 10-ish probably, 10, 11, the first time I was like, “I wonder what this is.” And I threw it in and I was like, “Oh, all right. That’s a thing.”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Was it a thing that caused any intrigue for you?

LIZ: Not at that age, no. Because at that point, I was just like, “Oh, I probably shouldn’t be watching this.” I rewound it a couple of seconds, so nobody would know the difference and put it away. Yeah, I was sneaky.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: So, not at that point, I don’t think. Funny story about that though, when I was a little kid like maybe 6 or 7, the way our house was laid out, I could see the family room TV from the top of the stairs, but only if I peeked around a corner. And I remember peeking around a corner at a very young age and seeing something on TV that there were sounds happening and things happening on the TV. And I remember in that moment thinking, “Why is my dad watching a movie about a woman having a baby?”

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: Because I recognized the parts and those were the only sounds I could associate with that, so that might have been my first real experience with porn, but I didn’t know it at the time.

LEAH: Yeah. And it was just your dad watching by himself?

LIZ: Yeah.

LEAH: And so, what about those toys that you found in the drawer? Did you turn them on? Did you experiment with them at all?

LIZ: No. They were male masturbatory toys.

LEAH: Okay. So, like a Fleshlight or something?

LIZ: It was 1980 something, so yeah, a Fleshlight of that time. It might have had to be plugged in. But yeah, it was something along those lines. So, I didn’t do anything with it. I was just like, “Why does my dad have this thing? It looks like a mouth.”

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: Again, things I don’t need to know as a child I now understand as an adult and wish I didn’t.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: That’s really interesting though because both of things you’ve mentioned, the porn, I haven’t asked you this question, I should ask before making assumptions, was it fairly standard hetero-centric porn?

LIZ: Oh, yeah. It was standard 1970s bush porn.

LEAH: It sounds like the sexual stuff that you found in the drawer was pretty much directed toward your father.

LIZ: It was, yeah.

LEAH: And so, based on whatever you might have been able to tell, either from the sounds behind the door or your just perception of their relationship, do you think that your mother was satisfied in her sexuality?

LIZ: At some point, I know she was. I don’t know if it was necessarily with my dad. But once I got into high school, she was remarried and I could hear them and she seemed to be having a good time.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: She was also the first person who told me the best toy stores to go to and things like that. So, at some point, she came into her own, but I don’t know when that happened.

LEAH: Yeah. Oh, that’s interesting. So, when your mom remarried and you started hearing them behind the door, did that open any conversations about sexuality in the home or was it still as quiet on that topic as it had been?

LIZ: No, it was just acknowledged that it was a thing that’s happening, but it wasn’t even a conversation of acknowledgement. It’s just like, “Sorry about that.”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Was there still Saturday morning time that was sequestered off?

LIZ: Thankfully, it was still sequestered.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: I don’t remember it being as scheduled as it was when I was younger with my dad.

LEAH: Yeah. And what were you seeing in terms of just affection and affectionate touch between your mom and your dad, and then your mom and your stepfather?

LIZ: I don’t remember there being much between my mom and my dad. He passed away when I was 13, so there’s some things I might just not remember. But my mom and my stepdad, he was all over her. He would grab her ass while she was walking across the kitchen or they would be making out in the kitchen and I’m like, “Dude, get a room.”

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: So, they were much more affectionate than I remember my mom and my dad ever being.

LEAH: I recognize that like, “Get a room” impulse.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: I also wonder if there was some appreciation or enjoyment of seeing that kind of affection for you or if it was just fully uncomfortable?

LIZ: I don’t think it bothered me. I was a teenager, so I don’t want to see my parents doing anything.

LEAH: Of course.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: But it didn’t really bother me. I don’t know that I appreciate it either though. It was just like, “Why in the kitchen? I’m just trying to get some ramen.”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: But I imagine it did leave you with the impression that affection was normal and desirable as part of a couple?

LIZ: Yeah, absolutely. It was a perfectly okay thing to do.

LEAH: Okay, good. So, at what point did you begin interacting with other people?

LIZ: My first sexual encounter really was when I was 15 with my boyfriend of a couple of years at that point.

LEAH: So, you started dating pretty early, but you waited to become sexual with each other for a while?

LIZ: Yeah, we did. Because it was our first time for both of us, so you want to wait and make sure that everything’s just perfect and all romantic and whatever, plus 13 seemed young. Even when I was 13, it seemed young. So, yeah, we waited a few years. And I think I was 15 the first time we had sex.

LEAH: Before you had actual penetrative intercourse, how far had your fooling around gone?

LIZ: He had fingered me a couple of times. There was a lot of dry humping going on.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: But nothing really beyond that.

LEAH: Was it pleasurable for you?

LIZ: It was. I don’t remember orgasming with him, but we had a good time. I enjoyed everything that we did do.

LEAH: And so, what led you to decide you were ready for intercourse?

LIZ: I think we were just making out on the couch and it seemed like the right moment. There was no forethought where we’re like, “Tomorrow’s going to be the day.” It was just we were watching TV and started making out and one thing led to another and there we were.

LEAH: Was there a moment that you said to him, “Okay. This is it,” or did it just happen non-verbally?

LIZ: I think it was non-verbal. I don’t remember being like, “Okay. We’re going to do this now” or anything like that. It was just like, “You have a condom, right?”

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: And he went, “Of course.” So, yeah.

LEAH: All right, so that’s verbal.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: That was my consent going, “Seriously, we need to do this.”

LEAH: And was it fun? Was it pleasurable?

LIZ: It was fun. We had a good time. He certainly had a better time than I did because I didn’t know how to have a good time with somebody else at that point. But yeah, it was nice.

LEAH: So, you had been masturbating for a while at that point. So, you knew how to make yourself cum. Yeah?

LIZ: Yeah, absolutely.

LEAH: And now, you bring somebody else into the equation. You’re not orgasming. Was there a sense for you that you needed to learn how to do this or that this is just a thing that doesn’t happen for girls during sex? Where was your thought process on that?

LIZ: I think I had figured out through reading, talking to friends, I have no idea, that penetration wasn’t necessarily going to get me there. It might have just been something I figured out on my own too, I suppose, and I was okay with that. I didn’t necessarily need that from him in my 15-year-old brain. That was okay that he was having a good time and I would take care of my own business later.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Okay. Was he at all peeved that he was not giving you orgasms? Because that can be a somewhat stereotypical male response.

LIZ: No, I don’t think he cared at all. I don’t think it wasn’t that he didn’t care, I just don’t think that I ever said, “Hey, why don’t we do this?” So, he wasn’t denying me anything I was asking for. It just didn’t cross his mind, I guess.

LEAH: And to be fair, when the sex ed that you get is disease prevention and pregnancy prevention and no discussion about pleasure, the male I don’t want to say can be forgiven, but it makes sense that the male doesn’t necessarily even know that there’s something that they should be working for.

LIZ: Right, yeah. He was probably oblivious and he might still be because he’s gay now. So, I don’t know that he’s ever given a woman an orgasm.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: But this is what I do to people.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: You’ve had more than one experience of having someone come out?

LIZ: That guy and the guy I had my first kiss with eventually hooked up later on.

LEAH: Oh my god.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: Yeah.

LEAH: Wow. I just got to ask. What did that do to your ego?

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: I personally was bi at the time and in a relationship with a woman, so I was just like, “Oh, this is what happens.” I was not surprised. I think they met at a party I was having even, so it wasn’t even really a thing. It was just like, “Oh, sure. That’s what that’s going to be.”

LEAH: Yeah, okay. There’s so much to talk about here. How long did you and that guy stay together?

LIZ: Yeah, about another year. It was typical on again, off again high school drama, but yeah.

LEAH: And did sexual pleasure ever enter that equation for you?

LIZ: Yeah. I think he got better with his hands at some point, but I don’t know that he ever actually gave me an orgasm. I don’t remember that being a thing.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Are you aching to explore new vistas of your sexuality, but you’re not quite sure how to proceed? Are you wondering if your desires are normal? Are you afraid you’ll have to blow up your existing relationship to have the kind of sex you want? Or maybe you’re hearing these conversations every week and thinking, “I understand what she’s talking about. I just don’t know how to do it in my life?” Well, that’s where personalized sex and intimacy coaching comes in.

When you work with me, I promise to help you feel safe exploring your sexuality. I promise that your sexuality is not shameful and together we’ll help you see yourself, your needs and your desires without judgment. Now I’m not going to tell you what you should do or feed you answers. That’s not what coaching is about. Instead, I’m going to walk with you in the process of discovering what’s right for you in a way that respects your emotional needs, your boundaries, and the pace that’s right for your nervous system. Because going too fast can send you into shutdown while going too slow can be infuriating and exhausting. The goal is to find the right pace for you.

I work with clients who are motivated to explore many different areas of sexuality including things like learning how to talk about your sexual desires with current or future partners, learning to date after a long time out of the dating pool, questioning if you might be queer, challenging body image insecurity in sexual relationships, dipping your toes into BDSM or consensual non-monogamy, exploring sexuality for later in life virgins, recovering from infidelity, and so much more.

I believe this work is deeply important and should be available to every woman regardless of your financial situation. That is why I now offer variable pricing. Whether your experiencing financial challenges, are financially stable, or have some extra to pay it forward, there’s an option for you. And I give the same level of care and support to you regardless of the pricing level you choose. For more information and to schedule a discovery call, visit www.leahcarey.com/coaching. That’s www.leahcarey.com/coaching. Now, let’s get back to the conversation.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: You were about to say that you broke up because he came out?

LIZ: No, we didn’t break out because of that. He just came out as bi. It was a transitional phase for him, I realize now. And I was okay with that. And then, at some point, our partners started to overlap a little and that got a little strange.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Were you in a small high school or was it large?

LIZ: No, there was 500 people in my graduating class, but my circle of friends was pretty small.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: That sounds very incestuous.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: Yeah, it was. Prior to me turning 21, most of the people I had been with had been with other people I had been with. It was just that tight of a circle.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: That sounds very much like the sex positive community I’m part of here in Portland.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: But I was doing that at 16.

LEAH: But you’re a kid, yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: I was an early adopter.

LEAH: So, you said you were dating a woman and you had come out as bi in high school. Now, you’re only a couple of years younger than I am and that was really not a thing that happened in my high school.

LIZ: No. It was not a thing at my high school either. We were groundbreaking.

LEAH: Yeah. That sounds like it would have taken a ton of not just self-knowledge, but courage. What allowed you to do that?

LIZ: Having the bisexual at the time boyfriend and then within our circle, it became like a, “Hey, maybe let’s try this” and we started experimenting with each other. My first kiss with another girl was during a game of truth or dare on a field trip.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: I personally never really came out to everybody, but everybody knew because my girlfriend at the time was one of the popular kids. And yeah, she got a lot of slack, ended up not graduating with us because she couldn’t even go to school. It was so bad for her.

LEAH: Oh, god. I’m so sorry to hear that.

LIZ: Yeah, it was rough.

LEAH: So, that first kiss with a girl during truth or dare, was that something that you had been hoping would happen or did it come as a surprise to you?

LIZ: I think prior to it happening, she was somebody I had been eyeballing. Again, she was in our circle, so I knew her status and that she was open to things. And when they were like, “Hey, why don’t you two kiss?” as our dare, we were like, “Okay.” And I don’t think I expected to enjoy it as much as I did.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: But I wasn’t upset about it, that’s for sure.

LEAH: Yeah. So, what was sex like for you the first time with a woman with the understanding that sex with a woman can cover a lot more territory than we think of when we say sex with a man?

LIZ: It was much more fulfilling for me. She was the one who gave me my first orgasm that I remember from somebody else. She was the first person to ever go down on me. So, we had a really good time and it was a fun experimental time.

LEAH: You said that she didn’t graduate from high school. Did the two of you continue to see each other when she was no longer coming into the school?

LIZ: Our assistant principal who in retrospect may have been a lesbian herself was very compassionate and tried to make accommodations. And it still was just too much for my friend to go. She eventually moved in with me and my family because her parents kicked her out.

LEAH: Oh, god.

LIZ: Yeah, it was just one of those typical early 1990s lesbian stories. Fortunately, my parents were perfectly okay with it and she ended up having to move in with us. So, yeah, we continued dating for three, four years. We’re still really good friends.

LEAH: Oh, good. I’m glad to hear that. So, did your parents know that the two of you were sexually active when she moved in?

LIZ: Oh, yeah. They did. I had come out to my mom because my girlfriend’s mom had found a note from me snooping through her drawers and that never goes anywhere good.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: So, I felt like I had to tell my mom before her mom told my mom. And the conversation went, “Hey, mom. Just so you know, I think I’m bi.” And she said, “I know that. Go to bed. You have school in the morning.”

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: All right. Yeah, she knew. And I had questioned that several times along the way like, “Why is it okay for my girlfriend to stay the night, but my guy friends can’t stay over?” And she said, “Your girlfriend’s not going to get you pregnant.”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: That is true.

LIZ: Fair enough. Yeah, she knew. My mom at some point may have heard us, so it was just paybacks for the times I had heard my mom.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, you said that the two of you stayed together for a few years. What happened next after that relationship ended?

LIZ: I decided that I wanted to consider being with men again. There was just something that’s like, “Let me give that a whirl and see how that goes.” And that’s what happened there. I was like, “I don’t think that this is necessarily where I want to stay, so I’m going to do some exploring with the other sex again and see how that goes.”

LEAH: And how did it go?

LIZ: I went through a slight whore period.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: In terms of real whorishness, it wasn’t that bad. But I had a few years where I was having a pretty good time.

LEAH: Okay. So, let’s go back and define some terms.

LIZ: Okay.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Because there’s a lot of stigma on the word whore, so what does that mean to you?

LIZ: I was just hooking up with people. I would talk to them a couple of times. I was again an early adopter of the Internet too, so I was chatting online with people and I would hook up and just go to their place and have sex and had a good time with it.

LEAH: So, casual hookup like one time, one night stand kind of thing?

LIZ: Several of those. I had my friend who actually turned me onto your podcast was a very good friends with benefits. So, yeah, we connected regularly. That was a really fun period.

LEAH: Okay. Sorry. I’m still stuck here.

LIZ: That’s okay.

LEAH: So, when you say, it wasn’t too bad on the whorish?

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: I’ve heard people who have numbers that are in the hundreds. I was not one of those people, but just I wasn’t in relationships. I was just having casual hookups and at the time, it felt whorish, if that makes sense.

LEAH: Okay. All right. I’m not opposed to the word as long as it’s being used in a like, “Yeah, this is who I am and what I’m doing” as opposed to a negative way.

LIZ: No. I have reclaimed that word. I have an ex-husband who used it in a derogatory way.

LEAH: Okay. Not okay that you had a husband who used it in a derogatory way.

LIZ: No, there’s a reason he’s an ex-husband.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: All right. So, you go through this period where you’re having a lot of partners, were you having pleasure with them?

LIZ: Most of them, yes. Some of them, not so much, but it was just a one-time hookup. I wasn’t about to teach them what I wanted. There was no point in that. If I knew that it wasn’t going anywhere, there was no reason.

LEAH: Sure. But you did teach some of them what you wanted, it sounds like?

LIZ: Oh, yeah.

LEAH: And what did that look like? Because again, you are ahead of the curve here. There are not a lot of us 1990s kids who had that kind of language and understanding of ourselves.

LIZ: I don’t remember having a conversation like, “Hey, why don’t you do this or try that or do more of this, less of that?” It was more like I would reposition myself just a little bit, so that I knew that he was hitting the right spots. Again, the friends with benefits that I mentioned, he was very good at reading the cues and got me to where I wanted to be.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Which is why he kept on getting the benefits, I assume.

LIZ: Exactly, yes.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yeah. So, you mentioned that you got married. What took you from this period of having lots of fun and having lots of partners to saying, I want to commit to one person?”

LIZ: Stupidity.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: If I’m honest, yeah, I don’t know. I really don’t know what it was. Everything about the beginnings of that relationship was just he was throwing red flags left and right and I was refusing to see them.

LEAH: Like what?

LIZ: At the time, he was like, “I want to see you again tomorrow.” And I was like, “Okay.” And I would drive over to his place, which was an hour and a half away, so that we could hang out and then, “I don’t want you to go there. Why don’t you come over here?” And now, I see that is a very controlling behavior, but at the time, I was just like, “Oh, he wants to spend all of his time with me. This is wonderful.”

LEAH: And so, did that continue into the relationship, that type of controlling behavior?

LIZ: Oh, yeah. It got worse actually.

LEAH: I’m sorry. Yes, it does.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: How long did the two of you date before making that commitment?

LIZ: It ended up being five months. His job transferred us out of state and in order for them to cover my moving expenses, we had to be married first. So, we got married. We were planning to anyway, just not necessarily when we did. And then, once we moved away from his comfort zone, things just escalated from there.

LEAH: Yeah. How long were you together?

LIZ: Just over two years.

LEAH: Was the sex good?

LIZ: No.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Why did you choose him?

LIZ: Because he made me feel wanted, which again now I see that that was not what it was at all. He just controlled me and I felt wanted because I didn’t know the difference at the time. But I really think that’s all it was.

LEAH: Yeah. What led you to finally leave him?

LIZ: He left a bruise on my arm.

LEAH: So, he became physically abusive?

LIZ: One time. He had been verbally and emotionally abusive for the whole time we had been together essentially. But we had a fight that morning about his lunch that I had packed for him, being the good dutiful wife that I was. It wasn’t the lunch he wanted and he grabbed my arm and was yelling at me about it. And I got to work that day and I had a bruise on my arm and I went, “I’m done.” And about two weeks later, I moved out.

LEAH: Wow. I have to say you, even at a young age, had a tremendous amount of self-knowledge and self-awareness and I don’t know quite what the word is for it, but you took care of things.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: That’s funny. My friend still say that something needs to get done and that’s what I’m doing. I’m just taking care of business.

LEAH: Wow. How old were you when all of this happened?

LIZ: 22, 23.

LEAH: Oh, you were really young.

LIZ: Yeah. Too young to be married, for sure.

LEAH: So, was leaving that relationship difficult or did he give you the divorce right away?

LIZ: Oh, I didn’t even file for about five years after that because I didn’t want to see him in court.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Wow.

LIZ: Yeah. I didn’t want to have to encounter him. I didn’t want to have face him. And it was about five years later, I finally was like, “All right. I really need to do this if I’m going to move on with my life.” And when he was served with the papers, I got a nasty email that was like, “Don’t you have enough respect for me to at least let me know this was coming?” And I was like, “I left five years ago. Why did you not know this was coming? And no, I don’t have any respect for you.”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, what happened next?

LIZ: After I left, there was a series of a couple of semi-serious relationships, and then I met my son’s father.

LEAH: Were all of those relationships with men?

LIZ: Yeah. I actually haven’t been with a woman in 20 years now probably. Just lack of opportunity more so than anything.

[LAUGHETR]

LIZ: So yeah, I met my son’s father and we were together for about two months before he became my son’s father. And we were madly in love and going to get married and that never happened. He ended up passing away of a drug overdose.

LEAH: Oh, god. I’m so sorry.

LIZ: No, it was the best thing that ever happened to me and my son.

LEAH: But still traumatic. How did the drugs play into the relationship? Somebody doesn’t go from zero to overdose overnight.

LIZ: No, but I was completely oblivious. We had smoked weed together like you do. But I didn’t know there was anything more serious than that going on. I knew that there had been prior to meeting me and he had been clean for years and I was like, “Oh, okay. This is fine.” As it turns out, I was just living in a cloud and didn’t know because his friends were like, “How did you not know that?”

I found a bag of what I now know was cocaine at one point and I was like, “This is not okay” and I flushed it after yelling at him. And he was like, “Oh, it wasn’t mine. It was my friend’s.” And I’m like, “I don’t want it in the house. It was in the garage, but it can’t be here. We have a six-month-old.” And then, it was maybe a year or so later, he got what he thought was cocaine. It turned out to be morphine and overdosed.

LEAH: So, you say it was the best thing that could have happened. Was the relationship troubled outside of his drug use?

LIZ: Oh, yeah. It was not good. The drug use wasn’t even a thing as far as I knew. It wasn’t a problem. So, yeah, we weren’t getting along. We were fighting all the time, but I didn’t have a job. I had just had a baby and what was I going to do? So, we had stayed together because neither of us had another option.

LEAH: So, how was the sex?

LIZ: It wasn’t bad. It was reasonable. I’ve certainly had better, but it wasn’t awful.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: We had a good time and it became less frequent as the problems got worse as you would expect to happen, I suppose. But it was still good.

LEAH: Plus, you were a mom of a young child and that necessarily changes the sexual dynamic between two people. So, prior to your son’s birth, were you having pleasure during sex?

LIZ: Oh, absolutely yeah.

LEAH: Yeah. After his birth, did you still have the same level of libido? Did you still have the same type of pleasure?

LIZ: Yeah. I don’t think the pleasure ever went away. I don’t think the libido ever went away. It just wasn’t necessarily directed at him.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Sure. Did you remain faithful?

LIZ: Oh, yeah.

LEAH: So, what happened when he passed away?

LIZ: After I got over the acknowledgement that I was relieved and not upset, which was a very weird feeling.

LEAH: Oh, I can only imagine, yeah.

LIZ: Yeah. I had already been I don’t want to say talking to other guys because that wasn’t it, but I was chatting online with my friends and we had developed a little circle of friends and one of those guys was appealing. So, we had started flirting, but it wasn’t anything more than that and shortly after he passed away, we met up for the first time and spent about a year together.

LEAH: And so, you said in the previous relationships that you had ignored red flags. Coming out of the time where you weren’t seeing the drug use that was there.

LIZ: I’m good at ignoring red flags.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Did you become better at seeing red flags?

LIZ: You would think, but no.

LEAH: No, okay.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: That relationship, it was a long-distance relationship, so that made it a whole lot easier, I think. I don’t remember there being red flags other than he had some commitment issues, which isn’t abnormal really, so yeah.

LEAH: And so, how was that relationship for you?

LIZ: It was fun. I think it was exactly what I needed at that point because it gave me the autonomy of living alone and being able to come and go as I pleased and not have to report to anybody. And if I wanted to paint the walls pink, I could paint the walls pink and nobody cared.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: But I still had that emotional comfort of knowing I was in a relationship.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Are you ready for easy to access birth control? Me too! That’s why I’m so excited about Planned Parenthood Direct, Planned Parenthood’s app. You can use the app to get birth control prescribed and mailed right to your home or sent to your pharmacy for pickup. You can also communicate directly with licensed Planned Parenthood doctors and nurses and learn about different types of birth control to figure out which one is right for you because we’re all different. Insurance isn’t required and birth control starts at only $20 a pack. In some states, you can even get UTI treatment and emergency contraception through the app.

You can download the Planned Parenthood Direct app from the App Store or Google Play Store. It’s currently available in 39 states plus D.C. And if it’s not in your state yet, sign up to be notified of new state launches on www.plannedparenthooddirect.org. Links are in the Show Notes. Accessible and affordable convenient birth control is huge, so if you use birth control, download Planned Parenthood Direct today!

[MUSIC]

LEAH: People often ask me how they can discover their turn-ons if they’ve never thought about it before. And you’ve probably heard me recommend watching sexy scenes in TV or movies or reading erotica. But now there’s another option that I think has them all beat, audio erotica. You can listen to an ever-expanding library of erotic stories on your phone through the Dipsea app.

Every story is a fully immersive radio play where you get to hear the characters flirt and dirty talk and have consent conversations and work each other up to the point of orgasm. If you’re learning about your turn-ons, here’s my recommendation. Click the Search button and look up the activities you’re wondering about. You can go through your whole ABCs, anal, BDSM, camping, dominance, edging, etc.

Dipsea releases new content every week, so there are constantly new fantasies for you to explore. And for listeners of this show, Dipsea’s offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to www.dipseastories.com/goodgirls. That’s 30 days of full access for free when you go to www.dipseastories.com/goodgirls. That link is in the Show Notes, so go to www.dipseastories.com/goodgirls.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: So, you like being in a relationship?

LIZ: I did at the time. A lot has changed since then for me.

LEAH: So, tell me about that. What has changed?

LIZ: I’m currently, technically still married on paper, mid-divorce.

LEAH: To someone we haven’t talked about yet?

LIZ: Oh, yes. This is somebody completely new.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Okay. How long have you been married?

LIZ: Married for 11 and a half years, together for about 13. He’s probably the main reason I’m here talking to you now actually.

LEAH: Okay. Then let’s go there. So, tell me about how you got involved with him.

LIZ: We met again online because everyone I’ve met since high school has been somebody I met online. And we talked for about a month before we had our first date, which lasted 12 hours. We met up for lunch and just went for a walk, and yeah, 12 hours on that date. And we saw each other every day after that. It was just an immediate connection. After we finally went our separate ways that night, I called one of my friends, I was like, “I think I’m going to marry this guy.” And he was like, “Really?” And I went, “No, I really think that I’m going to marry him.” And I did.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: And things were good. Everything was fine until it wasn’t fine. About four years in, our sex life which had been amazing up until then suddenly jumped off the edge of a cliff. There was no sex happening. When there was, he wasn’t getting really hard or he was finishing really fast and it was just very strange. And then, we went through a period where there was zero sex like none at all and that lasted over a year I think before I finally lost it.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Was there any conversation between you about something has changed?

LIZ: No. I think I had probably tried to initiate a conversation, but it was just like, “I just don’t want to” or it was blamed on me in some way or another. I had put on a couple of pounds or the windows weren’t being washed frequently enough, whatever it may be. That actually was a conversation that happened.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Wow.

LIZ: Yeah. And then, finally I blew up and lost it one day and I was like, “I can’t do this anymore. I can’t be with somebody who doesn’t want to be with me sexually.” And he finally broke down, sobbing hysterically, and told me that he was watching porn. Now, I will say this. I have no problems with porn. I enjoy porn and if you want to watch porn, you do you, but you should also be doing me. That’s the way I’ve always worded it.

LEAH: I like that, yeah.

LIZ: Yeah. And he wasn’t and that was the problem. It was a long-standing habit from what I know now. He’s told me.

LEAH: I have lot of questions and a lot of thoughts. A lot of people use the term porn addiction. That is a term that I don’t subscribe to, but I want to find out from you, is that what you think was going on?

LIZ: That’s what he calls it. I have since listened to enough of your podcasts to know that that’s not what it is. It’s just a porn habit and it was causing problems. Again, watch as much porn as you want as long as I’m still getting what I need.

LEAH: Yeah. And to clarify for anybody who hasn’t heard me go on this rant before.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: The reason that I don’t subscribe to the idea of porn addiction is that porn is a coping mechanism. For some people, it’s a purely sexual tool and that’s great. Some people use it as a coping mechanism because they don’t have other coping mechanisms. Some people turn to alcohol. Some people turn to porn. Some people turn to sleeping.

And so, I am far more interested in what is causing somebody to turn to porn than their actual porn usage itself. Because if you are looking at puppies, if you had a folder on your computer of thousands and thousands of puppies, we would not call that a puppy addiction because puppies are coded as sweet and lovable. Porn is coded as dangerous and violent. Okay. So, with that said, do you have an idea of what was driving him to use porn in this way?

LIZ: It was absolutely a coping mechanism and he even knows that. He’s admitted it several times and he says, “I wish I had other options.” But he just doesn’t have the self-awareness enough to figure out what else might be a choice.

LEAH: And that is a great disservice that we do to the men in our culture. We don’t give them a lot of coping mechanisms except sex, alcohol, and sports.

LIZ: Right. He doesn’t do sports and he only drinks occasionally, so it leaves us with only one other option.

LEAH: All right then.

LIZ: Here we are.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, then, what was the connection that he was making between him watching a lot of porn and therefore not being able to be intimate with you? Because that’s not necessarily a straight line.

LIZ: No, absolutely not. Because I could go watch porn right now and still go and have sex in five minutes, not a problem. In fact, I would like to. That’s what it does for me, but that wasn’t what he was doing with it. I think it was a frequency problem and he’s a few years older than me, so he was starting to get to that point where things were starting to taper off biologically anyway. If he was watching porn and flying solo missions to that, he didn’t have reserves left for me.

LEAH: And whatever it was that was going on for him emotionally, psychologically, mentally that was driving him to the porn was also probably getting in the way of being intimate. Because with porn, you don’t have to be intimate. You just have to be physical. But with another person, there is other stuff that gets in the way.

LIZ: There is baggage. There is emotion.

LEAH: Yeah. And obviously, we can’t dive too deep into his psyche because he’s not here and that’s not appropriate.

LIZ: We could dive in all you want, but not appropriate. I have theories.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: But there has to have been something that was driving him to the porn in that excessive way. And that was also getting in the way of his being able to be intimate with you.

LIZ: Yeah. He was intermittently unemployed, which is an ego blow to most men. And that also left him home alone for significant periods of time to deal with his anxiety about not having a job and having no other sexual outlet, that’s where he went. I think that was a lot of it.

LEAH: Anxiety and depression are huge libido killers, huge. And then, you bring porn into it where you’re seeing some very specific bodies doing very specific things and it’s already hard.

LIZ: This is not that body.

LEAH: Right.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Exactly. When it’s already hard for you to be intimate, then you look at a partner who 99.9% of us in this culture do not look like that and do not do those things, yeah, it makes sense that all of that would come together into not being able to have an intimate relationship with your partner.

LIZ: Yeah. It was a problem. I immediately got website blockers and put all of his devices on porn lockdown. He had rated G website access only. I went hardcore.

LEAH: Was that a boundary that you put in place or was that something that he suggested?

LIZ: It was a conversation that happened and he agreed. I was like, “If you can’t control this, I can help you not go to those sites because there’s tools available to make that happen if that’s what you want. If that’s not what you want, then we’re going to have to go our separate ways because this isn’t working for me.” And he was like, “No, let’s do that. Let’s block everything you can.” And he got on Cialis and everything got better. And then, it got worse again.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Because you weren’t actually dealing with the issue, you were just taking the coping mechanism away.

LIZ: Right. Yes, then other problems came up.

LEAH: Yeah. I want to be clear that I am not in any way chastising you for that. That is what we do, but the reality is that when you don’t deal with the issue and you just take away the coping mechanism, then all hell breaks loose.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: I offered to be his coping mechanism. I was like, “I know that you’re doing this just to deal with stress and deal with whatever’s going on. No questions asked. You come home and you tell me you had a bad day. I’ll get on my knees right there. It’s fine. I’ll take care of that for you.” It still wasn’t the same obviously as the porn was, but I think that got us through for a while though he didn’t take advantage of that offer nearly as much as he should have, in my opinion.

LEAH: Again, the intimacy aspect can create difficulty when what you’re dealing with is anxiety and depression. So, you said that things got worse again. What happened?

LIZ: He found a way around all of the blocks.

LEAH: Of course, he did.

LIZ: Why wouldn’t you?

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: I never asked for details. I don’t know how he managed to get around it, but he did and he admitted it that time. I was like, “Dude, things have fallen off again. What’s going on?” And he was like, “I started watching again.” This time, we went to therapy together. He went to therapy on his own, but only for a couple of sessions and then he was like, “I don’t think it’s helping.” You’ve been twice. Of course, it’s not helping.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Oh, god. I recognize that conversation.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Were you going as a couple or him individually to a therapist who had specific training in sexuality?

LIZ: No, standard run-of-the-mill therapist.

LEAH: Okay. Another PSA for everybody who’s listening, public service announcement. If what you’re dealing with are issues around porn and your sexual relationship, the vast majority of therapists do not have training in sexuality. It is something in fact that a lot of training programs specifically steer therapists away from.

So, then what you’re getting is just support through their particular lens of what sexuality is “supposed” to be, what normal sex is supposed to look like, their assumptions about sex. That’s not what you need. What you need is someone who has very specific training in sex and sexuality. Okay. End of PSA.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: It’s funny because when you interrupted with the PSAs, I’ve expected them to be coming, so it’s okay.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Excellent.

LIZ: I knew it was going to happen.

LEAH: Okay. So, the therapy was not a big hit.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: No, not surprisingly. I was hoping he would at least develop some other coping skills and he might have if he had kept going, but it just didn’t happen. At that point, this is horrible, I made a bargain with him. I was like, “That’s fine. But I need to get laid at least once a week.”

LEAH: I don’t actually think that that’s terrible. I think that that is you saying, “Here are my needs and you get to opt in or opt out of filling them.”

LIZ: Right. And he was like, “I can probably go even more than that.” I went, “Let’s not overpromise here.”

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: All I’m asking for at least once a week. If you feel the need to do it more, great. Also, I am no longer initiating because I was tired of being shot down. So, I was like, “It’s all you. At least once a week, this is the way it’s going to be.” And he did that for a while until just about a couple of months ago, I started to notice that things had tapered off again. And I was like, “Really? Are we doing this again?” I was like, “I’m not doing this anymore.” So, I called him out. I was like, “You’re watching porn again, aren’t you?” He was like, “Yeah.” And I’m like, “You’ve got a month to move out.” And he was like, “Okay.” He’s still here due to timing of apartments and whatever for another 18 days, I think. Not that I’m counting or anything.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: But we both acknowledged it’s been over for a while and just neither of us wanted to say it.  Very, very friendly, very amicable and we’re actually having more sex now that we’ve decided to end our marriage.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: I’ve even told him. I’m like, “I’m okay if this continues” because when it happens, it’s always really good and it’s very enjoyable, so there’s no reason to cut that off. I know where he’s been for the past 13 years. We know how to enjoy each other and if we’re still friends, why not have some benefits too?

LEAH: Yeah. Actually, I love that. And I think it’s really interesting that once you remove the requirements that come with being in a marriage, the emotional requirements, the commitment and intimacy requirements that then you’re able to move into this place where you can be physically and sexually intimate again. That I think makes a lot of sense and I’m glad that it’s serving you for now and as long as it might continue.

LIZ: Right. And we’ve both said that. If at some point, we decide to start dating, we have to let the other person know just because I need to know where his business has been before he’s back up in mine. So, we’ve been very open about that and if either of us feel like we’re starting to start dating again, we’re like we’ve got to call it then because I don’t want to be one of those couples that gets remarried. It didn’t work this time for a good reason. I don’t want to do it again. We’re really good friends. We’re just terrible spouses for each other.

LEAH: Yeah. I think that is really fantastic to recognize that.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: Friends, let’s talk about Patreon. It has been quite an evolution over the last two and a half years. For a long time, I took cuts from the episodes and put them on Patreon for people who financially supported the show. But by mid-2020, that no longer felt right because I was hearing from listeners who said they wanted to hear the Patreon extras because the show was making such a difference in their lives, but they couldn’t afford to donate. It really doesn’t feel appropriate to withhold this material in exchange for monetary support. That’s just not what I’m about.

So, from July 2020 through April 2021, I made all audio extras at Patreon free for everyone and that has worked well. I’ve been pleased to see that my Patreon support didn’t drop when you were supporting the show because you appreciate it rather than paying to get something in exchange. And now, I’m evolving again. Instead of pulling clips out of the show for Patreon and keeping the main episode as close to 50 minutes as possible, I’m letting the conversations play out in full in the main episode.

If my work is meaningful to you and you have a few dollars to support it each month, I will gratefully accept your patronage at Patreon. If you have more than a few dollars, consider donating extra in honor of women who need this material, but aren’t in a position to contribute. And I donate 10% of all Patreon contributions to ARC-Southeast, an organization that supports women in the Southeast United States to access reproductive services that are currently being legislated out of existence.

I appreciate every one of you. Whether you’re a client, a contributor, a social media follower or a silent listener, I trust you to know what’s right for you. Thank you for being here. You can find out more and become a community member at www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex. And if your finances are tight, but you still want to support the show, I would love it if you would take a screenshot of this episode on your phone and post it on Instagram. Tag me in your post and I’ll send you a personal thank you. Or send your favorite episode to a friend and invite them to chat about it with you. Use this show as a jumping off point to deepen your own conversations around intimacy and sex. Now, let’s get back to the conversation.

[MUSIC]

LEAH: This is relatively new. You said it’s just been a few months. And he’s not even out of the house yet, so anything we talk about from here forward is hypothetical. But what are you thinking about in terms of dating in the future?

LIZ: Since all of this has gone down, it’s been a very strange few weeks for me. I have realized that I’m actually aromantic, which is fantastically liberating, I have to say. For 44 years of my life, I didn’t even know that this was a term that existed and now I’m like, “These are my people.”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: So, what does that mean to you? Because different people use that term differently.

LIZ: For me, I don’t have that romantic I would throw myself in front of a bus for this person type of love. I never have. In retrospect, I know that. I think I get stuck in that lustful love, that sexual love that happens at the beginning and I just stay there. And then, I start going through the motions of what a marriage is supposed to look like and, “Hi, honey. How was your day?” When in reality, I don’t really care how your day was.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: And I was watching something on TV and this woman described herself as demisexual and I’m old. I had to google that. I don’t know what that term means.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: And I looked it up and I was like, “Oh my god, that sounds awful. Why would you do that?” And for anybody who doesn’t know, it’s somebody that feels the need to have a deep emotional connection before they’re willing to have sex with someone. And I was like, “Oh, god. No, that’s terrible. What’s the opposite of that?” So, that was my next google. What’s the opposite of demisexual? Which led me to aromantic and I was like, “I think that’s me.” And I ran it by a friend of mine and he was like, “Yeah.”

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: And then, I ran it by another friend and he was like, “I was listening to this podcast and I think that’s absolutely you.” And I was like, “How come I’m the gay guy that didn’t know he was guy, but everybody else knew?”

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: That’s who I felt in that moment. But now that I know and now that I understand that I don’t have to be all lovey-dovey and want to hold hands and snuggle on the couch, oh my god, so much better. So, I don’t really intend on dating in a traditional sense. I’ll probably find a collection of long-term preferably friends with benefits that I can actually hang out with and go to dinner with and Netflix and chill, but literally Netflix, not just the chill.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: But I don’t want somebody to be part of my life continuously. I don’t want to see your dirty socks on the floor again. I don’t want to hear you chewing. I don’t want any of that.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Which tracks perfectly with the two of you and your marriage and are able to go back into a sexual relationship that had been faltering because you don’t need the romantic commitment piece of it to be satisfied with the sexual piece.

LIZ: Yeah. No, they’re two entirely separate entities for me, which goes back to that enjoyable whore phase that I said I had.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: I don’t need that connection. I don’t need any emotional connection to enjoy sex with someone.

LEAH: So, when we were doing the biographical stuff at the beginning, you said that you consider yourself pansexual and I believe you said pansexual with a strong hetero preference. So, what does that mean to you in terms of future dating?

LIZ: I’m not shutting any doors. I’m not ruling anybody out as a possibility. Statistically, it seems more likely aligned up with a man and that’s okay. I’m perfectly all right with that, but whatever’s out there, whoever’s out there, if that’s what they’re into and we connect on that level, then great.

LEAH: Hypothetical question. Do you think that your aromanticism will operate the same with people of other genders?

LIZ: I think so. Having been with women before, we’re a pain in the ass.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: I say it all the time. Women are a pain the ass.

LEAH: People who say, “I wish I were interested in women, it would be so much easier,” I’m like, “You have no fucking idea.”

LIZ: No, it’s not. Not at all.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: Don’t think that it is. It’s complicated as your own brain is. Imagine being in a relationship with somebody with that same brain.

LEAH: Exactly.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: No, I don’t think that my aromanticism will change. I don’t think it was different with women before. I had dated some trans people. So, yeah, I don’t rule anybody out, but I don’t think that I’ll all of a sudden develop romantic feelings for somebody for the first time and I’m okay with that.

LEAH: Yeah. And I think that it’s also important just to put the marker down that, let’s say, you met a transwoman and suddenly, you were like, “Oh my god. This is it.” That would be totally normal and okay too. Your romantic experience, your sexual experience, your demisexuality versus all of the things can shift along those spectrum based on lots of other factors.

LIZ: Oh, yeah. If it happens and maybe I was just waiting to meet the right person as they say, then that’s great. If one day, I’m like, “Holy crap. This is what this actually feels like for the first time.” If that happens when I’m 52, it happens when I’m 52. I just don’t expect it to happen, so I’m not really looking for it. But I also know myself well enough now to not get stuck in that lustful attraction thinking that it’s love.

LEAH: That’s huge. You’ve mentioned that you have a teenage son. What do you want him to know about sex? We didn’t get a ton of useful information about sex when we were kids. What do you want to be different for him?

LIZ: I want him to know that it’s fun and it doesn’t have to be tied to love necessarily or you don’t have to be in a committed relationship to enjoy sex with somebody. And also, at the same time, of course, be safe and do your due diligence and all of that. But have fun with it. That’s what I really want him to know.

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LEAH: And now, it’s time for the Lowdown, the things we’re dying to know, but would usually be too polite to ask any good girl.

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LEAH: Do you have sex during your period?

LIZ: I had a hysterectomy several years ago, so no because I don’t have periods.

LEAH: Okay. Prior to your hysterectomy, did you?

LIZ: No. I was 30 when I had that, yeah.

LEAH: You were really young.

LIZ: I was. I’ve done everything young.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: Yeah. I had endometriosis type problems and just a slew of issues. I was like, “Just take it out. I’m done with it anyway.”

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: Finally, the doctor was like, “Fine.” Prior to that, I hadn’t because I don’t think that I was in a headspace to be okay with it.

LEAH: What’s the approximate number of sex partners you’ve had?

LIZ: 15-20 probably.

LEAH: Have you ever had sex with someone with a different racial identity than your own?

LIZ: I have.

LEAH: What’s your favorite sex toy?

LIZ: I have this glass dildo. It’s cobalt blue. It’s beautiful. If I didn’t have a teenager running around, it might be on display because it’s just pretty.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: That’s by far my favorite. I love that thing.

LEAH: So, glass allows you to do some fun things like temperature play, so do you ever do that?

LIZ: Not really because my husband, he’s very vanilla.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: I just don’t know that how I will be like, “Hey, let’s put this in the freezer for a while and see how that goes.” Yeah, it’s never come up. I’m not opposed to it, but it’s just never come up.

LEAH: Okay. What’s your favorite sex position?

LIZ: Probably doggy style. It just seems to work the best with my body and what I enjoy.

LEAH: Yeah. Do you prefer to initiate or for your partners to initiate in the bedroom?

LIZ: I like there to be a balance. Again, for a long time, I wasn’t initiating because I didn’t want to be shot down, so I’m starting to get back to that place where I can be like, “Hey, why don’t you meet me upstairs?” And it feels nice after not being able to do that for a while. So, yeah, I think somewhere in the middle.

LEAH: Are you generally more active or more passive during lovemaking?

LIZ: Probably somewhere in the middle on that too. I’m not just star fishing or anything, but I’m involved, but I’m not like, “Hang on. Let me hang from the chandelier” or anything like that.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Do you prefer clit stimulation or penetration?

LIZ: Probably clit stimulation. If I had to pick one or the other, that’s what I’m going with.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Do you enjoy G-spot estimation?

LIZ: Absolutely. And also, I recently discovered A-spot estimation. Yeah, which I’ve known the whole time. I just don’t know that it had its own name.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: But I think that’s why I like that glass dildo enough. It’s just long enough and firm enough to really get to that spot.

LEAH: Okay. Do you enjoy having your breasts played with?

LIZ: No.

LEAH: No sensation or you dislike it?

LIZ: It just doesn’t do anything for me. There’s not a lot of sensation. If you want to play with them, go ahead, but it’s for you, not for me.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Okay. Do you think it’s generally easy or challenging for you to orgasm?

LIZ: It’s pretty easy. On my own or with partners.

LEAH: Have you ever faked an orgasm?

LIZ: Oh, for sure.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: Yeah. No doubt I’ve done that. Probably just last week even. Again, he’s very vanilla. There’s a routine. There’s a pattern and I know what that pattern is, so if I just fake this now, we can get to the things that I know will get me there, so yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Got you. Okay. Do you prefer the orgasm from masturbating or from sex with another person?

LIZ: With another person. It’s just more fun.

LEAH: What’s your favorite thing to do to a partner during sexual play?

LIZ: I really like giving blow jobs. I think that actually might be one of my favorite things to do.

LEAH: What do you like about it?

LIZ: I like that they enjoy it as much as they do. Of course, because then that makes me enjoy it more. But I also like that in that moment, I am completely in control and that doesn’t usually happen.

LEAH: What kind of touch do you enjoy most?

LIZ: Any type of sexual touch I suppose. It doesn’t have to be firm or soft, but outside of a sexual encounter, I just don’t want you to touch me.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: I’m not holding your hand on the couch. I’m not snuggling up in your armpit. Just no, not my thing.

LEAH: What are your hard red lines?

LIZ: Breath play is definitely out. It freaks me out and scares me. And there’s a thing that’s spit play that’s apparently a thing now and I have no desire to be any part of that because that original ex-husband of mine, he would spit on me in a not so kind way.

LEAH: Oh, no.

LIZ: Oh, yeah. He was not a good person. So, yeah, I think it would just be too traumatic to relive that. Those are really it.

LEAH: Are there sexual things you’ve tried that you don’t ever want to do again?

LIZ: No. Everything I’ve done, I’ve either enjoyed or would do again, even if I didn’t necessarily find it thrilling for myself. If somebody wanted to, okay.

LEAH: Yeah. How do you feel about porn?

LIZ: I’m good with it as long as your partner’s needs are still being met. Porn is fine.

LEAH: Yeah. Do you have hair down there or are you bare?

LIZ: That’s a trick question because I am somewhere in between. I just started doing laser.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: So, for now, there’s still some hair, but not for long.

LEAH: So, why are you doing laser now?

LIZ: Because I don’t like the cirque du soleil act that has to happen for me to shave.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: It’s just a hassle. So, why not just have it taken care of? But because of that contortionist aspect of it, it didn’t happen as often as I like, but I prefer to be bare. It was a hassle.

LEAH: Yeah, okay. Have you ever had a threesome or more?

LIZ: I have. Two girls and a guy on two different occasions.

LEAH: Did you enjoy it?

LIZ: Not as much as I expected to, but it might have just been the combination of people. We were young.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: We didn’t know what we were doing.

LEAH: Do you enjoy receiving oral sex?

LIZ: Not so much. It’s never really been a thing that I enjoyed. Again, if you want to go down on me, have at it. For me, I don’t think there’s enough friction. It ends up being too wet to orgasm.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: Because that clit stimulation just isn’t as firm as I need it to be.

LEAH: Yeah. How do you feel about receiving ass play?

LIZ: I’m okay with it. I’ve done full-on anal before. It was all right. I wish I had known it was going to happen. I would have done more preparation.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Oh, there’s a whole lot in that statement.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: It wasn’t like the porn surprising or anything like that, I had agreed to it. It just was messier than I expected it to be.

LEAH: Okay.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: Because I didn’t know that that’s how things were going to go.

LEAH: Got you. Yeah, okay. How do you feel about giving ass play?

LIZ: I’m okay with it. It’s only come up once where it was somebody asked for that and I was like, “Sure. I’ll give it a whirl” and it was fine. I don’t mind.

LEAH: What do you consider the “kinkiest” thing you enjoy with the understanding that everybody’s scale of kink is totally different?

LIZ: I hate to use the term fisting because my pelvic structure doesn’t allow for it to be a full-on fisting scenario, but I really like that. I like that extreme fullness, that stretching. I like that feeling. And for a lot of people, that’s kinky.

LEAH: Yeah, for sure. Okay. Do you enjoy dirty talk during sexual encounters?

LIZ: I don’t mind hearing it. I’m really bad at it myself.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: My brain, it’s just not wired that way. I’m never going to come up with the perfect phrase that’s going to sound sexy, so I don’t. But I don’t mind hearing it. It’s good.

LEAH: Have you ever felt a sexual urge that confused you?

LIZ: One time, I was 11, 12. Something like that, maybe 12. And a girl held my hand for the first time in a relationshipy type of way. I knew it was weird because she made sure we had jackets covering our hands. I was just like, “What is happening here?” And I liked it, but I was like, “This is strange. This isn’t what you’re supposed to do.” So, I now know she had a crush on me. She told me regularly, “You don’t have to be with that guy. There’s other people that like you.” And I’m like, “Like who?” And she would never tell me and now, I’m like, “Duh.”

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: I get it now. Poor girl.

LEAH: What’s your favorite part of your body?

LIZ: My smile. I think I like my smile the best.

LEAH: Nice. What’s the least favorite part of your body?

LIZ: Everything between my shoulders and my knees.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Oh, god. I’m so sorry.

LIZ: Except my lady bits. They’re good. I like those.

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: Yeah. The culture does a number on all of us to some degree.

LIZ: Absolutely. I’m working on it.

LEAH: Yeah, good. I’m glad. What is something about your current sex life that isn’t as satisfying as you’d like it to be?

LIZ: The frequency. Even with the increase since we’ve decided to end our marriage, it’s still not as much as I would like it to be. We recently had a conversation about that actually because I was like, “If you’re ever in the mood and you think I’m busy, just ask. There is no bad time. I’m down.” And he was like, “The same goes for you.” And I was like, “No. You would be annoyed if I asked you every time I thought about having sex with you.”

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: “How often can it possibly be?” I was like, “Seriously, you’d be annoyed.”

[LAUGHTER]

LEAH: What belief did you have about sex as a child or a teenager that you wish you could go back and correct her on now?

LIZ: What I was saying about what I want my son to know, it doesn’t have to be tied to relationships. It doesn’t have to be this loving emotional thing. It should just be fun.

LEAH: Yeah. Liz, it has been an absolute pleasure to have this conversation with you. Thank you so much for taking the time and being so open.

LIZ: Thank you for allowing me to be.

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LEAH: That’s it for today. Good Girls Talk About Sex is produced by me, Leah Carey, and edited by Gretchen Kilby. I have additional administrative support from Lara O’Connor and Maria Franco. Transcripts are produced by Jan Acielo.

And I’m incredibly grateful for the financial support from Good Girls Talk About Sex community members at Patreon. If you’d like to support me in telling these stories and answering your questions, head over to www.patreon.com/goodgirlstalkaboutsex. You can find Show Notes and Show Transcripts at www.goodgirlstalk.com. To ask a question about your sex life, your desires, or anything to do with female sexuality, call and leave a message at 720-GOOD-SEX.

And before we go, I want to remind you that the things you’ve probably heard about your sexuality are not true. You are worthy. You are desirable. You are not broken. I work with women just like you to reflect their true sexual nature back to them without the judgment, shame or fear that can get in the way of us seeing it for ourselves. As a coach and PJ party hostess, I will guide you in embracing the sexuality that is innately yours no matter what it looks like. I’m here to help you sink so deeply into your true sexuality that the version of yourself that was scared to speak up for her own needs feels like a mirage from another lifetime. Until next time, here’s to your better sex life!

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